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Author Topic: what do you believe about ghosts/spirits/magic etc...?  (Read 431 times)
enemy anemone
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« on: July 24, 2010, 06:31:48 PM »

I'm not so much wanting to start a theological debate about what is actually what, but I am curious about what people believe, think, and do. for example, if someone tells you they really saw a ghost, what do you think, and how do you respond? if you hear that certain artifacts have been cursed by a witch doctor or that spirits dwell in a certain location, how do regard those artifacts or that location? do you think "psh, that stuff is not real" and disregard it? or do you think "it is real, but God is more powerful than those spirits, and I shall cast them out in the name of Jesus and/or not be afraid"? or something else?

like I said, I'm just curious how people regard these sorts of things. I would prefer this thread not become theological wrangling, but hey.
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Vlad!
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« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2010, 10:42:16 PM »

I personally believe that the Bible contains everything that God wants us to know about the metaphysical. If these things exist, God obviously didn't think they were important enough to warrant a direct mention. We do see evidence of spirits, magic, and (in one instance) ghosts in the Bible, so belief in these things is not, fundamentally, incompatible with the Christian faith.

That said (and hopefully the above doesn't introduce too much of the dreaded theological wrangling), I think that much of modern science really falls into the trap of assuming that just because our current understanding of the universe doesn't provide an explanation for a thing, it must not really exist. Specifically, I suspect that some of the magic, ghost sightings, and spiritual manifestations which have been reported or discussed were, in some sense of the word, real.

As an example, ESR claims to have channeled the god Pan, and I have no reason to doubt his account. But I think that the one wildcard--and Eric acknowledges this in his own account--is that our minds are capricious and mysterious things. For example, our ability to remember events works less like a video recorder and more like a court stenographer. Unfortunately, for most of us it's as if this stenographer were both drunk and high most of the time, because the things we remember are often no more than vague approximations. If you don't believe this, ask an older married couple to describe an important event, such as their first date, their first road trip, or (if you're feeling particularly discordian) their first fight. I'm always amused when I try this with my parents, because they will run into events where one is positive that it happened one way, and the other is positive it happened some other, contradictory way.

This is because our memory of events is constructed by us telling stories to ourselves. Though we might like to think that these stories are factual accounts, a lot of times our cultural biases, our emotional state, and our own desires color these accounts. Memory is also subject to the "copy of a copy" problem, in that as the actual event grows more distant, the inaccuracies in the story we tell ourself tend to compound. "I thought I saw movement out of the corner of my eye" becomes "I thought I saw someone out of the corner of my eye", which can then become "I thought I saw a pale blue figure out of the corner of my eye".

There also seems to be evidence that what we believe affects not only our perception of external stimuli but also our perception of ourselves. The placebo effect is one well-documented example, and it also has a counterpart called the nocebo effect, in which the patient's perceptions either cause an inert substance to have a harmful effect or cause a helpful substance to have either no effect or a harmful effect. The Skeptic's Dictionary article on the nocebo effect contains some interesting stories.

(I think a lot of the time these beliefs can be subconscious. For instance, if you asked a random person 200 years ago if he thought witchcraft was real, he might say "no". But then if you told him that a witch had cast a curse on him which would cause him to develop a fever, it's entirely possible that our estimable subject would indeed develop a fever. Telling the same thing to a modern person may have no effect, but if you tell her that living close to a cell tower can cause a fever due to microwave radiation and then remind her that she lives less than a mile from the nearest cell tower, she may in fact begin feeling feverish--and more suggestible people may actually convince themselves that they need to move because of their proximity to the tower. I have no evidence to support these claims, unfortunately...part of me wants to find the nearest cell tower and gullible neighbor, but the rest of me is lazy.)

Perhaps the most useful thing I learned in the one sociology class I took was a theorem proposed by William Thomas, which states essentially that if I define a situation as real, it is real in its consequences. In other words, it doesn't matter if something is actually real; if I believe it to be real, I will act as though it is. This property is exploited (knowingly or unknowingly) by con men, psychics, religious leaders, crackpots, nutjobs, and at some time in our lives probably every single one of us.

In any case, all this long ramble is saying is that I find the interesting paranormal activity to exist not external to us but in our minds--not in the sense that we're imagining it all, but in the sense that our own minds seem to hold the power we want to see around us.
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« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2010, 12:47:57 AM »

We do see evidence of spirits, magic, and (in one instance) ghosts in the Bible, so belief in these things is not, fundamentally, incompatible with the Christian faith.

 I think that much of modern science really falls into the trap of assuming that just because our current understanding of the universe doesn't provide an explanation for a thing, it must not really exist. Specifically, I suspect that some of the magic, ghost sightings, and spiritual manifestations which have been reported or discussed were, in some sense of the word, real.

Everything Vlad! says here is pretty much what I've always believed. I don't think I've ever thought that someone's claim about seeing/believing/experiencing ghosts/spirits/magic/etc wasn't real in some way. The question is, in what sense is it real? Is a person's claim/experience real : because they claim it is real (even if they're lying or not---I would consider this real only in the sense that they made a "real" claim that claimed something was real), because they're convinced that it's real (whether it's real or not), is this belief/experience only a hallucination, delusion, misinterpretation of sensory data, mental construct, biochemical side-effect, is there actually a real ghost/spirt or magical experience involved, or is this belief/experience a combination of some of the above?

I only see two possible ways of "knowing" the sense(s) in which something is real: a natural method or a spiritual one. Unless I can discover through a natural method and/or a spiritual revelation a reason for believing that something someone said is real (beyond the, "they made a real claim" stage), I don't think I could really affirm or deny their claim of its veracity. In such cases I'll usually just retain an interested skepticism.



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spacebrat311
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« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2010, 04:34:04 PM »

I generally don't believe in metaphysical beings of any kind.
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« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2010, 05:23:50 PM »

I generally don't believe in metaphysical beings of any kind.
I didn't know you were an atheist!
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« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2010, 08:09:25 PM »

I'm not. I just don't think metaphysics are a helpful way of discussing God.
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« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2010, 09:09:44 AM »

I'm not. I just don't think metaphysics are a helpful way of discussing God.
I think this is just semantics, but I'll let it go because I don't think the point of this topic is really the existence of God so much as the existence of fringe paranormal phenomena.
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« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2010, 09:15:33 PM »

I actually just finished reading a fiction book by a Christian author that got me thinking about these questions - Nightmare by Robin Parrish. He includes an author's note about his own beliefs about the paranormal, but a few people have still criticized him for not addressing it in a more decidedly "Christian" way. :P

In any case, I believe that there is a spiritual realm that can and does impact this physical one. But I've never had what I'd consider a paranormal experience (beyond a few silly Ouija board sessions), so I'm naturally a little skeptical when I hear about them from others. I don't necessarily ignore it and say it isn't real, because I don't know that, but I do start to look for other explanations. Could the person have been dreaming when they saw the "ghost"? Could the "magic" be explained by science or illusion? Did the person's own subconscious beliefs cause them to perceive or remember something differently?

In any case, all this long ramble is saying is that I find the interesting paranormal activity to exist not external to us but in our minds--not in the sense that we're imagining it all, but in the sense that our own minds seem to hold the power we want to see around us.

This is the conclusion I tend to draw, but I'm still open to the possibility that some of it is externally real.

We do see evidence of spirits, magic, and (in one instance) ghosts in the Bible, so belief in these things is not, fundamentally, incompatible with the Christian faith.

I agree. Some Christians will jump to the conclusion that any paranormal activity is either imaginary or demonic (interestingly, not a lot of credit is given to angels), but I don't think the Bible necessarily presents such a narrow view. It does caution against messing around with spirits and magic, which makes sense if they do exist. Certainly, God is more powerful than those spirits, but that doesn't mean you'd want to get in the middle! Smiley

If human spirits do interact with the physical world as ghosts, though, that leaves Christians with some interesting questions. Why haven't they "moved on"? Why would God delay heaven or hell for these spirits? Why do some of them seem to be malevolent and others benign? The book I read brought up two interesting ideas - that ghosts are spirits who don't have a firm grasp on their identity so they become "lost" and unaware of themselves, or that they are people visiting from heaven (and possibly even from hell, though that's harder to explain). But I don't know what I'd give as answers to these questions.
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« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2010, 06:33:48 PM »

I believe in ghosts, spirits, UFO's (but not necessarily aliens), and Nessie... Okay, maybe not so much Nessie, but I do believe in the other three things.
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« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2010, 08:32:27 PM »

I believe that ghosts and/or spirits exist in some fashion.  Magic, though?
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