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Josh
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« on: September 15, 2003, 07:55:53 PM » |
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This is kind of a strange question, but...
When God gave Satan permission to tempt Job... do you think Satan knew in advance that Job would not renounce his faith? Or do you think he really had hope that Job would curse God?
Sort of random, I know, but I think it's important to understanding both the book of Job and the nature of Satan.
My answer: Satan knew perfectly well what would happen. He knew that Job would never curse God.
How did he know? Well, he's not omniscient, but I think he could have decuded it with ease. God doesn't hesitate in letting Satan tempt Job, and Satan is probably aware of the fact that God knew what Job would do, so Satan should have been able to deduce that Job would remain faithful.
So why did Satan go ahead with the whole thing? Well... I'd say because he's sadistic. He just wanted to torment Job, even though he knew that he wouldn't be able to prove his point.
Anyone disagree?
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latinchic
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« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2003, 09:05:32 PM » |
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Nah. Satan's way too much into himself, that he probably convinced himself he could do it- his ultimate challenge to get God upset over his beloved child. I mean hey- Job did harbor lots of resentment over it, so he did a pretty fine job of being a jerk.
lol.
latinchic B)
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"Mercy's eyes are blue....and when she places them in front of you.....nothing holds a roman candle to....the solemn warmth you feel. There's no measuring of it as nothing else is love." -The Shins
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RokrantheGreat
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« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2003, 09:12:38 PM » |
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I think Satan was really trying. I'm sure that he knows that he will lose, but I think that he keeps hoping that he can win, even if its small victories, like turning one man against God.
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\"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the former.\" - Albert Einstein
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DvChWi
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« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2003, 10:11:24 PM » |
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Yeah, you think if he realized God's full control, he would just give up right now. This is all pretty much speculation though. I don't think the scriptures say much on this issue.
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Fun facts about Chuck Norris:
Newton's Third Law is wrong: Although it states that for each action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, there is no force equal in reaction to a Chuck Norris roundhouse kick.
Chuck Norris can divide by zero.
Chuck Norris CAN believe it's not butter.
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Harenil
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« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2003, 10:19:30 PM » |
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I think Satan truly believed he could succeed. Why else would he keep trying to?
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 "I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with typewriters." -Solomon Short |
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Skrappybiskit
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« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2003, 10:28:59 PM » |
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Perhaps he merely delighted in causing Job pain, even if Job never did curse God. Although Job was hardly perfect through the whole ordeal as you might well expect.
Skraps
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Harenil
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« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2003, 10:35:16 PM » |
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True, very true. Job is a great book...
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"I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with typewriters." -Solomon Short |
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Vlad!
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« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2003, 07:56:04 AM » |
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Hey, didn't I ask this question earlier? Maybe not, but it seems familiar  Anyway: I think that Satan thought that he could win. Which actually means that I think God is not fully omnicient, since if He were Satan would probably know about it, and who would challenge an omniscient person? But I'm still mulling on that one. If I don't mention it leinad will probably pop his head in and say something, but there are those who believe the satan in this book is just a challenger or an advocate among God's angels and not Lucifer himself. There are even those who believe that there IS no real prince of darkness, just angels which tempt men to see if they will remain true to God (like what happened in Job). Kind of an odd stance, but one that I thought should be mentioned. |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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bloop
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« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2003, 08:03:50 AM » |
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Job could be entirely philosophical and fictitious in nature, so I have no idea. There are even some people who think "Satan" in the book isn't the devil Satan or what have you, but just an angel who's job it is to test faiths of people...used much the same way as Jesus telling Peter "get behind me Satan". Peter isn't the devil obviously, so in context that just means an opposing force. Just a thought.
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Enjoy our pub. user/pw: thephorum Follow me on Grooveshark or Spotify. username: iceybloop |
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Vlad!
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« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2003, 09:37:03 AM » |
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You took the words right out of my mouth ^_^
I got in trouble earlier for suggesting that Job might be an allegory, so I didn't go there. But I agree.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Skrappybiskit
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« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2003, 10:28:04 AM » |
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Though of course it's pointless to view it as an allegory, considering that there's no basis for the belief and at the end of the day the book still makes the same point.
Skraps
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« Last Edit: September 16, 2003, 10:28:26 AM by Skrappybiskit »
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Vlad!
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« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2003, 11:05:27 AM » |
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That doesn't follow at all. There's just as much evidence to suggest that the book is allegorical as there is that it actually happened. Perhaps the message is the same, but that doesn't mean we should be agnostic about it :angry:
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Skrappybiskit
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« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2003, 11:14:50 AM » |
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That doesn't follow at all. There's just as much evidence to suggest that the book is allegorical as there is that it actually happened. Perhaps the message is the same, but that doesn't mean we should be agnostic about it :angry: Which evidence are you refering to? Skraps |
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oneafroboy
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« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2003, 02:35:34 PM » |
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Which actually means that I think God is not fully omnicient, since if He were Satan would probably know about it, and who would challenge an omniscient person? Woah. I think this is a dangerous and fallacious position to take. God not omniscient? I think the Bible makes it clear that God is omniscient and holds all things in His hands. I think it is a false assumption to believe that *no one* would challenge an omniscient person. I personally, in my own life, often resist God. Now, as a believer, the Holy Spirit is continually conforming me to the ways of God, the ways of truth and life, but I still rebel, I still sin, even though I know that God is omniscient, and in the end will have His way. What you are stating, Vlad!, assumes that knowledge leads to logical actions, and we as human beings know that is not the case. There's no doubt that "Satan" (or whoever is the tempter in this story) is sadistic, and wants to make us miserable. Even if he knew he didn't win in the end, Job wasn't perfect, and in fact Satan did give Job quite a shake up in his faith. So, I don't know whether Satan or whoever thinks he was actually going to win or not, but in either case, he caused Job a lot of pain. I too am curious about this *evidence* of Job being allegorical. I don't really think it makes a difference whether it is just allegorical or a historical event. It is still a story with a message. And you could probably make a case that such events of a devil asking God to tempt a human happens. Whether Job was an "everyman" character or an actual person, I don't know. I'd certainly be interested in learning about some of this evidence though. Another thing I've heard about Job: that the Job story may take place before the Flood. (Now if it's allegorical, then it's irrelevant.) This was made in reference to the mention of two giant dinosaur-like creatures (the leviathan, being one of them) mentioned in it. Just a note of interest. |
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« Last Edit: September 16, 2003, 02:36:29 PM by oneafroboy »
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\"Living your life like you're trapped in a bad rap video is just not that appealing.\"
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Vlad!
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« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2003, 05:03:55 PM » |
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Ok, you're right that belief in the one does not necessitate belief in the other. Which is good, because I certainly have no idea about God's omniscience. But you can believe that He holds all things in His hands without being omniscient...
My point was that there's no actual evidence for either one. So there is as much evidence that it's allegorical as there is evidence that it's 100% true, because there's no evidence for either.
To me, it just seems to have the 'feel' of an allegorical tale perhaps loosely based on reality rather than an actual event divinely revealed to someone and written down exactly as it happened. This doesn't lessen its 'impact' or teaching power in any way, and in fact it doesn't even violate 2 Tim 3:16. It says all scriptures are inspired by God. Can an allegory not be God-inspired? Jesus used parables to illustrate some of His points and teachings, why would it be different in the Old Testament?
But I don't see this as the central issue, and I actually shied away from even mentioning my beliefs on this issue until bloop made his excellent observations and I agreed with him.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Josh
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« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2003, 05:35:42 PM » |
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I see no more reason to disbelieve Job than I do any other book of the Bible, but yeah, the book is still just as effective either way, so it's really not a big deal.
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Skrappybiskit
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« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2003, 06:50:04 PM » |
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I think that Satan thought that he could win. Which actually means that I think God is not fully omnicient, since if He were Satan would probably know about it, and who would challenge an omniscient person? Considering that I as a human being exposed to the word of God know that he's omniscient choose to ignore that fact sometimes in the face of everything I know, I would consider the devil, being the father of all lies, to be even more suceptable to this than I am. If he is truly fully wicked and lies to everyone else, is it not reasonable that he lies to himself? He must have, originally, to desire to rebel against God. Especially when he was a witness to the direct glory of God. Perhaps his pride won't let him admit that he can't thwart God. Perhaps he's acting according to his own free will, and according to a predetermined path at the same time. I'm mulling this, too  Skraps |
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Vlad!
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« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2003, 08:21:45 PM » |
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Yeah, I see your point. It seems silly for Satan to delude himself, but I'm sure I do the same thing almost daily. So I admit defeat on that point: Satan thinking he could win does not imply lack of omniscience on God's part.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Skrappybiskit
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« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2003, 09:46:50 PM » |
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So I admit defeat on that point... I wasn't aware there was a war... Skraps |
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oneafroboy
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« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2003, 09:59:53 PM » |
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I agree, Skraps. It's not a war. We're all trying to discern truth and build each other up in Christ.
Heaven knows I've been wrong an innumerable number of times...
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\"Living your life like you're trapped in a bad rap video is just not that appealing.\"
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