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Author Topic: Facebook status updates considered harmful  (Read 1376 times)
Vlad!
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« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2011, 09:44:00 PM »

Those who elect not to should feel pressured to
But see, that's a big part of the problem. If I'm not a member of Facebook, I can't participate. I just wrote a random story in the Hangout thread because it was on my mind tonight and I wanted to share, sort of like you're talking about. In 24 hours, this story will be indexed by Google, Bing, and Yahoo! (I know this because I see their bots crawling our site) and even people who aren't members of the phorum can find it and read it. If the phorum were larger (and if I were a better writer) then perhaps it would wind up on a news aggregator like Reddit or Digg, and people could read it and link to it without having to enter any walled garden or even create an account. I would love it if these anonymous people could even comment without creating an account, but unfortunately the reality of spambots makes guest posting wildly impractical (longtime phorumers will possibly recall that I fought long and hard to keep guest posting available for as long as possible until we just got absolutely flooded with spam).

Not that I post here rather than Facebook because I think it will make me famous or because I want to wind up on Digg, but the point is that this is how the Web is intended to work: it's open, it's client-agnostic, content-agnostic, and it erects no barriers between viewer and content. None if this is true about Facebook.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2011, 02:33:29 AM »

Um, so start a blog or something.
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Vlad!
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« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2011, 07:47:05 AM »

Why would I do that? A weblog is an "I talk, you listen" medium. Sure, others' comments appear in a small font at the bottom of the page, but I would much rather participate in a forum of equals.

(I used to have a Xanga site which I rarely used, but then Xanga somehow broke the ability to sign in using Firefox on Linux (and perhaps other OSes as well, some people seem to be having problems even on Windows) so I don't go there anymore. Xanga were sort of moving to the 'walled garden' approach since you had to be a member to comment, but at least they made their content public even if participation was private.)

A weblog seems, in many ways, to be a step backward from a web forum. There are certainly instances where it is useful; if I had knowledge to share that I wanted to put on the web, for example, or if my main focus was generating original long-form content (such as Paul Graham's essays or Joel Spolsky's original posts on software development back in the early 2000s.

Though I do create that sort of thing from time to time, I would much rather participate in a discussion. I prefer this thread over the Hangout thread, for example, because in this thread I'm interacting and have a chance to refine my opinions by hearing the opinions of someone who disagrees with me. In Hangout, it's usually just me posting things I find interesting, which nobody then proceeds to comment on. If I had a weblog, it would be all of that (no doubt including the lack of interest from others) and none of this. Or if I did get this, it would be my opinion front and center in the big type and then dissenting opinions sequestered at the bottom in small type.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2011, 08:54:29 AM »

Quote
my opinion front and center in the big type and then dissenting opinions sequestered at the bottom in small type.

As it should be.  ph34r :ρ
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Vlad!
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« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2011, 09:12:03 AM »

As it should be.  ph34r :ρ
Now we're talkin! Smiley
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
murlough23
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« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2011, 04:30:25 PM »

Why would I do that? A weblog is an "I talk, you listen" medium.

Seems appropriate if you're posting a focused piece of writing that required more organized thought than the average forum post. You provide the main thrust of the content; it will hopefully be the seed for the kind of conversation you're looking for, but you're still looking for a place specifically to expose people to whatever you're writing about. Blogs can generally be open to the world or only open to select people, depending on the host and the parameters they allow you to specify.

Otherwise, if the intent is to engage in discussion about your writing with like-minded people (meaning they share that hobby, not necessarily that they share your viewpoints) who also submit their own articles or stories, there are probably forums that exist specifically for that sort of thing. Which again takes something you hoped to make wide open and pushes it into a niche, but I don't see how you're going to find the kind of feedback you're looking for out in the big pond that is the Internet unless you have some way of directing the intended audience toward it.

Sure, others' comments appear in a small font at the bottom of the page, but I would much rather participate in a forum of equals.

Said forum will either require membership to post (the same thing you tried to prevent here, and that you are criticizing Facebook for), or else be open to the ravages of the Internet.

(I used to have a Xanga site which I rarely used, but then Xanga somehow broke the ability to sign in using Firefox on Linux (and perhaps other OSes as well, some people seem to be having problems even on Windows) so I don't go there anymore. Xanga were sort of moving to the 'walled garden' approach since you had to be a member to comment, but at least they made their content public even if participation was private.)

Even when I had a Xanga site on which only other Xanga members could post (not specifically people I knew, though I could have restricted it to that if I chose), I would get the occasional drive-by spam or even a real person who I didn't know criticizing me for something like, oh I don't know, saying I found Asian women attractive. I figure you're either open to the world's crap and criticism and you accept that this kind of crap will come along with the possibility of finding kindred spirits among the total strangers, or else you implement that layer of safety by participating in a site that requires membership to post. You cannot have it both ways.

A weblog seems, in many ways, to be a step backward from a web forum. There are certainly instances where it is useful; if I had knowledge to share that I wanted to put on the web, for example, or if my main focus was generating original long-form content (such as Paul Graham's essays or Joel Spolsky's original posts on software development back in the early 2000s.

I must be misunderstanding the kind of "stories" you're hoping to use as a springboard for social interaction, then. A weblog setting may seem to have an "I speak, you listen and comment" format, but with multiple bloggers on the same site, there's a good amount of give and take, assuming they all post and read each other's posts regularly. (And this is what I think the better Facebook users are doing with its "Notes" widget - said notes along with photos and most anything else can be set to be world-viewable, though not world-commentable.)

Though I do create that sort of thing from time to time, I would much rather participate in a discussion. I prefer this thread over the Hangout thread, for example, because in this thread I'm interacting and have a chance to refine my opinions by hearing the opinions of someone who disagrees with me. In Hangout, it's usually just me posting things I find interesting, which nobody then proceeds to comment on.

We have a fairly small user base here at the Phorum. I honestly don't know how people find us at all. It's natural that a lot of things posted won't get commented on. I've learned not to assume that no comments means no one read it. A lot of times I read something and think "Hmmm, that was interesting", but I don't really have any specific feedback to provide, so I just finish reading it, close the window, and get back to whatever I was working on. I suspect a lot of people do this (which is probably why Facebook has that "Like" button, and other sites like Xanga have a way to give some sort of thumbs-up without actually commenting if you can't think of anything specific to say).

If I had a weblog, it would be all of that (no doubt including the lack of interest from others) and none of this. Or if I did get this, it would be my opinion front and center in the big type and then dissenting opinions sequestered at the bottom in small type.

I feel like you're looking for the ideal social networking solution that does not exist. It's paradoxical - it needs to be open to the world beyond a pre-selected list of your personal acquaintances, and yet it needs to be free of spam and derogatory comments from passing trolls. It needs to not trap its users in a "walled garden", yet it needs some sort of membership so that those who interact with one another can be identified in some sort of ongoing fashion. It needs to be enough of a presence on the web that it can be easily found, and yet not used by so much of the general populace that those who do not choose to use it feel excluded. If you can build that sort of a site and actually amass some sort of a decent user base, then by all means, sign me up.
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Vlad!
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« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2011, 04:47:13 PM »

Making someone become a member in order to participate is, unfortunately, a necessary evil of the Internet. Making someone become a member to even view your content is not. This is the key differentiator that I think you may have missed. With this in mind, it seems like all the seeming contradictions in your final paragraph get ironed out pretty easily.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2011, 04:58:56 PM »

Making someone become a member to even view your content is not.

Did you miss the part where I said most of the content posted to Facebook can be made viewable by Everyone? It's not the default, but then, given all the bitching about privacy issues, it probably shouldn't be. Whenever I write a note or post a photo album, etc., there's a pretty obvious selector which defaults to "Only Friends", but can be set to "Friends of Friends" or "Everyone". I think there might even be a way to select a specific subset of my friends, but I haven't messed with that option yet.

Before I was on Facebook, friends who knew that I didn't prefer to create a Facebook account at the time, but who wanted me to see something that had been posted there, would simply set it to "Everyone" and then Email me a link. Problem solved.

For example, here is a photo album of mine that is set so that "Everyone" can view it, and Facebook tells me to just share this handy link with people to let them see it:
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=97764&l=06c628adc1&id=1048993457

Xanga and most blog sites and forum sites, by comparison, have far more limited options - usually it's either everyone can see it, or only your full list of friends, not taking into account who they know or whether you want to be more selective than that.

So basically all you're missing out on by not being on Facebook are the pithy status updates you don't care about anyway (which don't seem to have individual view settings or their own deep linked URLs, so it's assumed that only your Friends can see them), plus content that people don't want the outside world to see anyway. If someone who is on Facebook and who knows you wants you to see something, they can allow it.
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murlough23
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« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2011, 05:20:14 PM »

Stop the presses. I was wrong about Notes. Making those visible to "Everyone" only means that Everyone on Facebook can see them. That's disappointing, and also inconsistent behavior, since the "Everyone" setting elsewhere means the outside world can see it. Maybe they think my writing is more private than my photos, but shouldn't I be the one who gets to determine that?

Still, if you're simply aiming for "post a block of text, make it viewable to everyone without a login", a lot of blog sites and message board sites will do the trick. I think we've agreed that requiring a login for comments is just plain sensible. One thing I do enjoy about some blog sites on which I am not a member is that they will let you log into to other systems like Facebook, Google, some other blog site, etc., and use that as your identifying information when leaving a comment. I generally won't create an account on a system I have no intention of using beyond the one comment that I want to leave. it's just a hassle to have a kabillion accounts floating around that I never actually log into.
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