Marital Troubles

[murlough23]

I'm about to share some really personal stuff. So while I'm open to questions/suggestions/constructive criticism, please bear in mind that this is a situation I've been wrestling with, praying about, and generally losing sleep over for the better part of the last year. I'm posting it here because I trust you folks to be understanding and hopefully offer some fresh perspective.

My marriage has been on the rocks for a few years now. A lot of it is linked to my wife's bouts with depression - an issue where I did not realize the full extent of her struggles with it before we got married. (She had told me she'd been through depressions, but I had no idea that they could be so immobilizing as to make her want to put virtually no effort into life for blocks of several months at a time.) While the tendency towards depression has been a lifelong thing for her, I think some of the things that triggered it more recently in worse ways than I've ever seen before have been (a) the fact that we do not have kids yet and plans for that aren't on the horizon, and (b) the fact that the current economy and the cost of living in Los Angeles means that she needs to work, at least if we want to support a standard of living that allows us to do fun things like travel and to save for the future rather than living paycheck-to-paycheck. It just isn't the life she expected to have after getting married.

She figured she'd be a stay-at-home mom by now. Our plan when we got married was for her to be in school part-time for a few years to get more credits toward Early Childhood Education, which she could use to earn more working at preschools, which at the time seemed to be what she wanted - she likes working with little kids. I was doing what I could to support her wishes, and every now and then she'd have hard days at work and we'd have a conversation about why she needed to work at all, and I pointed out that I'm paying all the bills and that's pretty much all we can do with my salary, so if she wants to get to her dream of being a mom sooner, then we need to make a surplus in order to save up money. (And she also needs to get a driver's license. She's still working on that.) Seems logical and reasonable, right? Two people working together to accomplish a common dream.

The first real signs of trouble with this arrangement came in late 2007, when she quit her job at the local Montessori school because she had been offered a job that paid better at another preschool nearby. That job only lasted for three or four months before she was let go. I was never entirely clear on why. She started over with a new job at a third preschool, but that job proved to be so stressful (partly owing to a less-than-ideal child/teacher ratio in their classrooms) that she decided to give up on the field entirely. We talked about it over the summer of 2008, and she decided somewhat abruptly that she wanted to be a librarian. I knew this was a risk - that was when the economy really started to crap out - but I wanted her to do something she could be happy enjoying. So she quit her job, shifted her focus in school to library science, and worked part-time at a craft store in order to keep bringing in some sort of an income.

The library thing didn't last long - maybe about half a year - before she decided it was boring and quit her classes. The craft store gave her fewer and fewer hours, but the job that she had quit at Montessori opened up again and her old boss actually contacted her and asked her to come back - so I figure she must have been doing something right even if she wasn't 100% happy doing it. This was early 2009. She's been back at that job ever since then - she doesn't thoroughly hate it but she's still very unsatisfied with the fact that she has to work at all. (She was raised in the much more traditional mold of "Men bring home the bacon, women keep house", and despite the fact that we specifically talked about this before we even got engaged and agreed on a plan that had us both working until we had kids and then she could choose whether to be a stay-at-home mom or whether to put the kid in daycare, she's never quite been able to reconcile the practical reality of today's economy with the fact that she expected to fit the traditional gender role.)

Making matters worse, mid-2009 was when the biological clock really started to go into high gear (we both turned 30 in 2008), and she started to get very depressed over the baby thing. She started to lose interest in very basic things that used to come pretty naturally for her - keeping her stuff reasonably tidy around the house, coming up with fun ideas for things to do together on the weekends, initiating stuff with friends during her free time, even basic personal grooming and cleanliness. Being put on a medication at least helped to curb the worst urges caused by the depression - really scary stuff like her wanting to hurt herself - but it also made her sleepy most hours of the day. So, with only a half-time job, no school, and no other real responsibilities, she'd end up sleeping most of the day, and not doing much of anything active during her daylight hours. We wouldn't get out and do much together despite my efforts to cheerlead her and pick up the slack in terms of planning activities and ways for us to get exercise. She'd have so little energy that even when we did get out to do something, we wouldn't get far enough for it to really matter, so both of us started gaining a lot of weight as a result. Not the kind of life I'd choose to live, if left to my own devices.

All of these factors combined had sort of a chilling effect on our marriage, as it felt to me like all of the things I was once attracted to were being systematically stripped away, leaving behind a big black hole of need but no way to get my own needs met. I know that sounds like a horribly selfish thing to say, but I'm generally a person who can handle putting in 90% while the other person's putting in 10% in a relationship as long as I figure the arrangement's temporary because they're going through a hard time (and Lord knows I can be a pain in the ass and not have many attractive qualities to show for it when I'm going through something rough). But this just dragged on and on for over a year, to the point where I finally realized last summer that I felt almost no connection to her. Even on a basic friendship level, it was like we couldn't have a conversation with any depth. Close friends began to pick up the slack as I started to seek "intellectual intercourse" anywhere. (I never sought the other kind of intercourse anywhere. Just in case you were wondering but didn't want to ask.)

Most of the time between the summer of 2010 has been a mixture of stress and extreme regret for me, as I've tried to pick up the slack and find ways to motivate her, but I've been faced with the increasingly insurmountable wall of ideological differences - even with the wide-open sandbox of "Do something for a living that makes you happy, just do something", she is never happy with any job, even part-time. She's at least become self-aware enough to realize the effect that her depression and her lack of willingness to put in any hard work most of the time have had on me, and we've been trying to work out some of that stuff in marriage counseling (I've also talked about it at some length with my pastor). But she can't seem to reconcile the most obvious practical solution - just put in the hard work now and get the reward of parenthood without it putting you in the poor house later - with the feeling deep down that she's being forced to be something she never wanted to be. I see it as a refusal to grow up and accept responsibility. (As do most of the friends I've talked to about this.) So we've arrived at a pretty big impasse.

I was honestly starting to think that we were headed for divorce, up until this weekend when the two of us went on a retreat to try to rekindle things. We had some good talks on that retreat. Basically I decided to show some grace and say, "If you really hate your job and want to quit, we just got our tax refund and it was more than I expected, so we can afford to experiment and see what it's like when you're not working for a few months." She saw this as a pretty huge deal. It seemed like the idea of that gave her a lot of freedom. But the trade-off, I told her, is that I need more domestic support and more effort put into personal maintenance - no more insane clutter around the house, no more sleeping all the time out of boredom (i.e. find some hobbies), no more letting yourself go, because you wouldn't think it was fair if I blew off all of my responsibilities for these things. She understood, and admitted that part of the reason she started blowing off all these things in the first place was because she felt hopelessly forced into being something she couldn't be. It's an experiment. I don't know if we'll be able to support her not working long-term. (A friend of mine who recently got laid off gave me DIRE warnings that she shouldn't quit her job in this economy, but should wait to get laid off so that she can collect unemployment, which I agree makes financial sense, but emotionally speaking, that's just gonna keep her trapped if she really wants out of the job, because I see no likelihood of them letting her go in the near future.) So this might end up becoming an "I told you so" situation where she sees for herself what happens when she doesn't work. We'll see. I really want to give her the benefit of the doubt on this one, because the effect that this idea seems to be having on her general attitude is striking.

But long-term, I'm still concerned about the debilitating effects that chronic depression have on her, and the way all personal responsibilities go out the window when she gets hardest. I'm really worried that at some point in the future, if this happens when we have a kid, I'm essentially going to end up feeling like a single parent taking care of two kids. I have serious doubts about her ability to be a competent mother (and this hurts, because I used to believe she'd make a great mother). I can't imagine being able to live with myself if I knowingly forfeit the ability to become a parent (which I've always wanted, too - I'm just not in such a huge hurry to do it) in order to maintain a marriage to someone who has gone and wrecked most of the things that I ever found interesting about her in the first place. So it's a pretty rough decision that seems to involve giving up on a dream either way - not to mention the altruistic part of me that is concerned about her future. Then mix that with various people's interpretations of the Bible's position on divorce, and the legal implications if that worst case scenario plays out, and you can see why I haven't been getting very good sleep for oh, about a year now.

Prayer and insights would be appreciated.

[bloop]

I think there's a lot of wisdom in waiting for the kids as you have. Both of our children were conceived at a time when I was unemployed, putting a very hard financial strain on our family that continues to a lesser degree (not that we conceived either of them with intent, and not that I'd trade them for anything). On the other hand, while it did create its own set of difficulties, I never had to deal with a biological clock. I don't know how well "set" you are for a child on one income, but it sounds like there are enough other issues that it would be irrelevant - it's just not a good idea. Otherwise, I might just recommend starting to plan a child on one income.

My wife has gone through bouts of depression in the past, but related to circumstance (unemployment, mine or hers) or post-partum symptoms, so even there, it's hard to offer a lot of insight. I'll be praying for your family, though.

[murlough23]

I don't know how well "set" you are for a child on one income, but it sounds like there are enough other issues that it would be irrelevant - it's just not a good idea. Otherwise, I might just recommend starting to plan a child on one income.

My gut feeling is that financially speaking, we could probably squeak by. I don't think it would be a whole lot of fun or that we'd be able to provide the kind of life for that child that I'd really like to - we'd be stretching to make ends meet, and I grew up watching my Mom do that and I feel pretty strongly that I don't want to knowingly bring a child into that sort of situation. I'm more worried about (a) the stress it would cause me knowing that I'm the single point of failure, because it puts forth one hell of an assumption that my job will continue to exist and they'll continue to want me here to do it, and (b) the resentment I would feel that she didn't chip in before the fact so that we could have a surplus to fall back on in that worst case scenario.

To put it another way, my salary alone can support the two of us now and we'd more or less break even. Bringing a kid into the mix means that we'd have to find things to cut out of our lives to make up for the extra cost. I'm sure we could do it, but after a million an one reminders that we can't go on this trip or even go out this weekend, she can't go visit her parents in Hawaii, etc., she's really gonna go stir crazy.

Plus, all of that's only a short-term solution. Eventually, a kid's gonna be spending at least part of the day in school and we'll sort of be back to where we are now - you don't have someone to take care of 24/7, so you need to do something productive with at least some of your free time.

My wife has gone through bouts of depression in the past, but related to circumstance (unemployment, mine or hers) or post-partum symptoms, so even there, it's hard to offer a lot of insight.

Circumstance-based depression, while still serious, is generally a lot more temporary than the sort of deep-seated, recurring depression issues that can arise without warning, even when circumstances are superficially quite good. But it's still good that you brought them up, because financial hardship would be a huge stresser for me and that wouldn't bode well for the quality of our marriage (also a situation I don't want to bring a child into - I figure the kid deserves to see their parents happy to be with each other, not resenting each other for not pulling their own weight), and post-partum is just one of those things that's a gamble and can hit even the most emotionally sound women unexpectedly after that baby's born and their hormones crash. I sure as hell don't want post-partum on top of mood swings that are already quite worrisome. That's just plain unsafe for the kid.

They say that you get married for better or for worse, so I get that you're gonna get hit with stuff you don't see coming, but damn, you'd think a responsible person would disclose their deepest struggles and the things they truly expect out of life before saying, "I do". I feel like she saw marriage as a safety net and basically jumped in without really thinking it through when she saw that I was finally ready - despite me trying to be as open and honest as possible and really work through whether it would be a good thing for us. We've more or less agreed that if we had both had our eyes open to all of the truth about each other, we wouldn't have gotten married.

One upside of this whole situation is that we've been extremely good (at least thus far) at preventing accidental pregnancies. I kind of figure that if it were God's will for us to have a kid regardless of how prepared we think we are, we'd have had one by now. So while I'd like one eventually and I'm sure the kid'll bring a lot of joy despite the stress inherent to parenthood even in the best of circumstances, I'm thankful that the little tyke hasn't shown up yet.

[Vlad!]

Sorry to hear that. Over the years you've told us a lot about your life struggles--a lot of the stuff above, in addition to the stuff about your mom earlier.

One bit of advice (and as a fellow science/engineering person you no doubt know how much strength of will it took to limit myself to just one) is to not be afraid to rely on friends. It sounds like you're already seeking counseling and also seeking advice from friends, so you probably don't need this advice, but I have a few friends in my life who have the uncanny ability to make me feel better about any situation I'm in just by providing perspective, comfort, a listening ear, and/or a 2x4 upside the head (you no doubt also know how frequently I need that last one).

I'm sure this is small consolation right now, but in my own experience it's in challenging situations where we can grow the most. We can also fail the most, so I don't want to sugar-coat it, but don't be afraid to embrace the situation and address it for what it is and how serious it is. Of all the mistakes I've made in dealing with serious life speedbumps, the worst ones have come about when I tried to have a "normal life" in the middle of an emotional, spiritual, or relational maelstrom. The effort of trying to look like I had it all together took so much energy that I had too little to spare for the actual cause of the trauma. I don't know what that means for you in your situation, but I felt it was important to throw that out there.

I'll be praying for you.

[murlough23]

Sorry to hear that. Over the years you've told us a lot about your life struggles--a lot of the stuff above, in addition to the stuff about your mom earlier.

Ugh, yes. At least at this point my Mom's able to keep herself going on handouts (food stamps, unemployment, and such). It's a less-than-ideal situation, but at least the burden of supporting her financially hasn't fallen back on me. Back in 2006/2007 I "loaned" her a lot of money so that she could keep her house during the worst of it - otherwise she'd have had nowhere to go and she'd have ended up with us, which would have been an unworkable situation for many reasons. I understood at the time that I'd probably never get the money back from her, at least not until she sells the house, which at this point isn't going to happen until my Dad kicks the bucket.Having that money back now would be a huge leap forward in terms of our future plans, but I shouldn't look with resentment now at something I did then with the intent of being charitable.

One bit of advice (and as a fellow science/engineering person you no doubt know how much strength of will it took to limit myself to just one)

That comment made me chuckle. Thanks for that.

is to not be afraid to rely on friends. It sounds like you're already seeking counseling and also seeking advice from friends, so you probably don't need this advice, but I have a few friends in my life who have the uncanny ability to make me feel better about any situation I'm in just by providing perspective, comfort, a listening ear, and/or a 2x4 upside the head (you no doubt also know how frequently I need that last one).

Yes! Indubitably. It's during times like these that I'm extremely grateful for the time I've spent cultivating a community of friends, mostly from my church (and especially the tight-knit group in our neighborhood Bible study), who have come to feel like family members in a life where I can trust actual blood relatives about as far as I can throw them. Having these people around brings a multitude of perspectives, and while I'm not naive enough to accept any one human's words as Gospel, they all make great sounding boards and I'm grateful for their endurance in listening to all of my whining.

It took me a while to outwardly admit to many of these people that our marriage was less than ideal. I'm generally pretty transparent about failings in my personal life - I figure they can be used as good examples - but marriage was one of those things where I wanted to us be seen as happy and more or less doing it right, despite the fact that anyone's gonna make mistakes and learn from them along the way. Also a lot of these folks are mutual friends to both me and my wife, so I didn't want to slam her in front of them. But now that I've opened up and asked for prayers and understanding and ideas from so many of them, I've felt a very strong showing of support, and that's the thing that's kept me fighting it out when I otherwise would've thrown in the towel many times over by now. (The fact that they're friends to both of us is a blessing in disguise - usually when a couple's having issues, people tend to take sides, but knowing they care about both of us means I can trust them to call me on it if there's any part of this situation in which I'm out of line.)

Of all the mistakes I've made in dealing with serious life speedbumps, the worst ones have come about when I tried to have a "normal life" in the middle of an emotional, spiritual, or relational maelstrom. The effort of trying to look like I had it all together took so much energy that I had too little to spare for the actual cause of the trauma. I don't know what that means for you in your situation, but I felt it was important to throw that out there.

It's certainly meaningful. I'm the kind of guy who likes to face problems head-on and talk about the stuff most people don't want to talk about. This often gets me in trouble given that most of my circle of friends, while they're very deep-thinking and caring people, tend to put a lot of value in saving face, so you have to know someone really well before they'll spill the kind of beans that I'd spill right away if I felt the person was up for it. So I've kind of caught myself by surprise in realizing that for the longest time, I was playing this situation so close to the vest and not wanting to admit to anyone that there was so much upheaval in a marriage I was hoping others could use as a good example.

My wife, however, pretty much wrote the book on denial. Not that she doesn't realize her problems, but she'd rather not talk about them and just "be happy". It's a very temporary, fleeting happiness when you just drown your problems in temporary enjoyment, but I also know what happens when I push the need to talk about things too far, so I've spent a lot of evenings stuffing it down and figuring it's not worth upsetting her. It's another reminder that we are so not on the same page.

I'll be praying for you.

Thanks.

[whim]

I am sorry for what you are both going through.  Praying.

[Wildcatblue7]

Geez, mur.  I wish I had something more substantive to tell you other than I'll be praying for you, but I say that with the utmost sincerity.  God be with you.

[plvarona]

Wow.  That sounds rough.  I'll be praying for you!

[ewok20t3]

I'm praying for you, buddy.

As someone who has had mental health issues since childhood, I understand what a burden those issues are to the individual and to their loved ones.

My mental issues sometimes cause problems with me and my wife, but I think your situation is more complex because of money/work being involved, so I'm not sure if I have any kind of great insight that I can give you. I can ask my wife how in the world she deals with me, and maybe she'll have some good advice for you  .

[murlough23]

ewok, Question: Have you ever been prescribed a medication for these issues?

I ask because my wife has just decided to change psychiatrists, after being dissatisfied with her old one and feeling the guy just spends five minutes not really listening to her only to keep prescribing the same meds, which do stave off the worst of the anxious/borderline suicidal feelings, but which make her extremely drowsy for most of the day. Combine the side effect of the meds with the fact that she doesn't have a whole lot of interesting things to do, and that's a big part of the reason why she spends nearly half of every day sleeping. She feels that if she goes to a shrink who will listen, maybe they'll be willing to try her on a different med or modify the dosage to allow her more of a functional life. It's been hard for me to figure out what to blame on the meds, what to blame on the depression, and what to blame on her laziness (because even in the best of moods, she's pretty lazy).

I took meds for two separate periods of a few months each (in 2000 and again in 2002), to ward off anxiety attacks. It worked well. I didn't notice any side effects except maybe some mild stomach issues. But I know my own mental issues that caused the anxiety (as well as some bouts with it in 2005 that I got over without meds, and a depression during college that may have stemmed from something similar) are not the same as hers. So I can sort of understand, but at the same time I'm impatient with how long this has dragged out, especially if it turns out a shrink getting lazy on the job is partially to blame.

[ewok20t3]

ewok, Question: Have you ever been prescribed a medication for these issues?

I ask because my wife has just decided to change psychiatrists, after being dissatisfied with her old one and feeling the guy just spends five minutes not really listening to her only to keep prescribing the same meds, which do stave off the worst of the anxious/borderline suicidal feelings, but which make her extremely drowsy for most of the day. Combine the side effect of the meds with the fact that she doesn't have a whole lot of interesting things to do, and that's a big part of the reason why she spends nearly half of every day sleeping. She feels that if she goes to a shrink who will listen, maybe they'll be willing to try her on a different med or modify the dosage to allow her more of a functional life. It's been hard for me to figure out what to blame on the meds, what to blame on the depression, and what to blame on her laziness (because even in the best of moods, she's pretty lazy).

I took meds for two separate periods of a few months each (in 2000 and again in 2002), to ward off anxiety attacks. It worked well. I didn't notice any side effects except maybe some mild stomach issues. But I know my own mental issues that caused the anxiety (as well as some bouts with it in 2005 that I got over without meds, and a depression during college that may have stemmed from something similar) are not the same as hers. So I can sort of understand, but at the same time I'm impatient with how long this has dragged out, especially if it turns out a shrink getting lazy on the job is partially to blame.

I have been prescribed a couple of different medications and there was one I took (Lexapro) that made me drowsy and slowed my metabolism to the point that I gained 20 pounds. Those 20 pounds came back off immediately following coming off of the pills, so I'm sure it was the medicine. I can't remember how much effect it had on my actual sleeping habits, but I do remember it making me pretty drowsy.

As far as shrinks go, I went to one who basically said the same things each time I went. I made absolutely no progress during the few months I went to this guy, so I eventually just stopped going, so it is possible that she needs to start seeing someone else. I never went to an actual psychiatrist, though. I let my primary care physician prescribe my medicine and I would see a mental health counselor on the side, so the type of shrink she is seeing may be different than the type I was going to.

Like you said, a big problem may be the fact that she doesn't have many interesting things to do. When I get bored is when I start to notice that I become a prisoner of my thoughts. Obviously, I'm not saying she should forsake medication and shrinks for collecting stamps or whatever, but hobbies have made me focus my anxiety on less important matters, thus making me feel less stressed.
 

[murlough23]

I have been prescribed a couple of different medications and there was one I took (Lexapro) that made me drowsy and slowed my metabolism to the point that I gained 20 pounds. Those 20 pounds came back off immediately following coming off of the pills, so I'm sure it was the medicine. I can't remember how much effect it had on my actual sleeping habits, but I do remember it making me pretty drowsy.

As far as shrinks go, I went to one who basically said the same things each time I went. I made absolutely no progress during the few months I went to this guy, so I eventually just stopped going

Wow, your story sounds so similar to hers, because that's exactly what she's taking. I think we can probably do better (something that's more effective against the depression without the side effects totally sidelining her livelihood), but I also acknowledge that one has to be careful starting and stopping these things.

so it is possible that she needs to start seeing someone else.

I don't think her having an affair will help our marriage. 

Seriously though, she's already found a new shrink and will start seeing him next week or the week after that, I think.

Aside from that, we are attending counselor together. It's the same counselor she'd been seeing about some of the depression issues as far back as 2008 when the stress with working at the preschool hit an all-time high and she quit. The referral was through one of our pastors, and the counselor is a Christian, so once the depression issues starting to make our marriage really suck, we basically just converted her solo counseling meetings into marriage counseling. And the counselor agrees that she needs a new shrink, if for no other reason than to get more attentive advice on what meds are gonna work best. (Meds are a crapshoot in most cases, so I figure the best you can hope for is a doctor who will carefully consider the evidence.)

Like you said, a big problem may be the fact that she doesn't have many interesting things to do. When I get bored is when I start to notice that I become a prisoner of my thoughts. Obviously, I'm not saying she should forsake medication and shrinks for collecting stamps or whatever, but hobbies have made me focus my anxiety on less important matters, thus making me feel less stressed.

She told me just today that she was thinking about getting into writing poetry and some of the things she used to do just for fun and personal expression. She saw a website where basically you could create books of poetry or photos or whatever and they would help publish them for friends interested in buying them; I made sure to point out that she should have a hobby for the fun of it and not because she expected any serious financial gain (using my own writing at Epinions as a parallel - sure, I make money, but it's chump change and I'd write reviews for free anyway). The thing she told me that was a big surprise was that one of her life goals was to write a children's book and get it published, so she was gonna see where this writing thing went and maybe one day take some classes. That was huge. I didn't think she had identified any life goals other than having a kid. She's also talked about volunteering at a nearby home that helps rehabilitate sick children or something like that, as a way to both fill time and have something good on her resume if/when she decides to resume working. She's genuinely excited about this and it doesn't feel at all like something she's grudgingly acepting that she "should" do, so that's progress.

I figure this is all subject to change because sometimes she does have these energetic spurts where ideas for new things to do with her life come and go rather rapidly (after quitting looking after little kids the first time, she thought for about a week that she was gonna be a masseuse or else sell beauty products on the Internet before settling on the librarian thing, and none of these panned out in the end) But coming around to realize that she has other hobbies and interests gives her more dimension, which to me is essential, because I don't feel that I could have a lot in common with, or be terribly attracted to, someone who only pursues their identity in parenthood. (Not to say that's not a worthwhile goal, as it is probably THE most important thing a lot of people will ever do... I just know my life won't be 100% that when I am a parent, so I don't want her life to be 100% that, if this makes any sense at all.)

[ewok20t3]

Wow, your story sounds so similar to hers, because that's exactly what she's taking. I think we can probably do better (something that's more effective against the depression without the side effects totally sidelining her livelihood), but I also acknowledge that one has to be careful starting and stopping these things.

I had a feeling she may be on Lexapro when I read your original post. I honestly hated being on that drug. There were times that I just felt like a zombie. If I remember correctly, I went to my primary care physician and told him about the side effects I was having and he put me on a different medicine (I think it was Paxil) and I felt much better than when I was on Lexapro. I had some suicidal thoughts, but they weren't serious, so if she is having serious suicidal thoughts it's possible that Lexapro is the best thing for that, I don't know. She may want to talk to her doctor about the side effects and see if there are other options.

She told me just today that she was thinking about getting into writing poetry and some of the things she used to do just for fun and personal expression. She saw a website where basically you could create books of poetry or photos or whatever and they would help publish them for friends interested in buying them; I made sure to point out that she should have a hobby for the fun of it and not because she expected any serious financial gain (using my own writing at Epinions as a parallel - sure, I make money, but it's chump change and I'd write reviews for free anyway). The thing she told me that was a big surprise was that one of her life goals was to write a children's book and get it published, so she was gonna see where this writing thing went and maybe one day take some classes. That was huge. I didn't think she had identified any life goals other than having a kid. She's also talked about volunteering at a nearby home that helps rehabilitate sick children or something like that, as a way to both fill time and have something good on her resume if/when she decides to resume working. She's genuinely excited about this and it doesn't feel at all like something she's grudgingly acepting that she "should" do, so that's progress.

I figure this is all subject to change because sometimes she does have these energetic spurts where ideas for new things to do with her life come and go rather rapidly (after quitting looking after little kids the first time, she thought for about a week that she was gonna be a masseuse or else sell beauty products on the Internet before settling on the librarian thing, and none of these panned out in the end) But coming around to realize that she has other hobbies and interests gives her more dimension, which to me is essential, because I don't feel that I could have a lot in common with, or be terribly attracted to, someone who only pursues their identity in parenthood. (Not to say that's not a worthwhile goal, as it is probably THE most important thing a lot of people will ever do... I just know my life won't be 100% that when I am a parent, so I don't want her life to be 100% that, if this makes any sense at all.)

Up until a couple years ago I often had those same "energetic spurts" of wanting to try new things to make money. I, personally, attributed that to not having a job that I felt like I wanted to have for the rest of my life, and not knowing where to look to find that. Now that I'm settled into a job that, God-willing, I'll have for the rest of my life, I don't have those spurts very often anymore.

I agree that having a hobby without the expectation of making money from it would be very beneficial. The Lord has blessed me with a love of music. I spend alot of time reading about music and listening to music, and it keeps my mind off of things that would send me into freak-out mode. I do stress about music, but I know that when I'm stressing about music that I'm not stressing about something that's going send me into depression. I'll probably never make a dime off of my love of music, but if your wife can make money off of one of her hobbies that's just icing on the cake, I suppose. I don't have all of the answers, but I know that having a passion for something that isn't a life/death matter is something that God has used to help me.

[Vlad!]

Just chiming in with an observation:

I've found that often, the more I put structure and expectations on a hobby, the less I enjoy it. I love writing, but if it were my job I would likely get frustrated because I have to do it for someone else, on someone else's schedule, etc. It would be great if she could get a children's book published, but step 1 is to do something fun and relaxing with no expectations beyond itself.

Also, I think it's super awesome that murlough found the courage and humility to be open about his marital troubles on the phorum, and then ewok was able to come forward and provide some incredibly valuable perspective. Amen!

[murlough23]

I had a feeling she may be on Lexapro when I read your original post. I honestly hated being on that drug. There were times that I just felt like a zombie. If I remember correctly, I went to my primary care physician and told him about the side effects I was having and he put me on a different medicine (I think it was Paxil) and I felt much better than when I was on Lexapro. I had some suicidal thoughts, but they weren't serious, so if she is having serious suicidal thoughts it's possible that Lexapro is the best thing for that, I don't know. She may want to talk to her doctor about the side effects and see if there are other options.

I was on Paxil during the instances of depression I mentioned above. I didn't realize it was still on the market. It seemed like it did the job, but again, different symptoms in my case.

I wouldn't say her thought have been seriously suicidal... more in the range of "I want to hurt myself" than "I want to kill myself", though I guess one can lead to the other. Our therapist seems to agree that it's good those alarming signs haven't been there in a while.

Up until a couple years ago I often had those same "energetic spurts" of wanting to try new things to make money. I, personally, attributed that to not having a job that I felt like I wanted to have for the rest of my life, and not knowing where to look to find that. Now that I'm settled into a job that, God-willing, I'll have for the rest of my life, I don't have those spurts very often anymore.

Feeling like you have a purpose is a big deal. My bout with depression/anxiety in 2000 had stemmed from the stress I went through in 1999 after graduating from college and having to find a job. Lots of upheaval there. I got the job late that fall, but the anxiety continued into the spring - for some reason my brain couldn't let it go. I feel like there are both emotional and chemical causes behind these things... sometimes you can be adequately addressing one (i.e. you resolve the stressful circumstances) but not seeing the other (your brain's still producing too much A and not enough B to regulate it).

I agree that having a hobby without the expectation of making money from it would be very beneficial. The Lord has blessed me with a love of music. I spend alot of time reading about music and listening to music, and it keeps my mind off of things that would send me into freak-out mode. I do stress about music, but I know that when I'm stressing about music that I'm not stressing about something that's going send me into depression. I'll probably never make a dime off of my love of music, but if your wife can make money off of one of her hobbies that's just icing on the cake, I suppose. I don't have all of the answers, but I know that having a passion for something that isn't a life/death matter is something that God has used to help me.

Music's a big thing to me which is why I'm part of this Phorum. My life without it would not be the same. What's funny is that some of the music I listen to can seem very dark and depressing to an outside of observer, but often what's helpful in there is seeing that someone else dealt with it and they understand. I realize that wouldn't work for everyone.

I'm encouraging the hobby while telling her not to worry about the money aspect (so long as she's not pouring a bunch of money into something unwise, at least), because I want her to find something she loves. If it can translate into future work, bonus! If not, the main goal of giving her more of a purpose, something meaningful to do while waiting for the #1 thing she wants to do, can still be achieved. Part of the problem for a long while is that she seemed to think I was being so pragmatic that I only saw her for her potential to make a second income (and lack thereof). Really I was trying to set us up to be able to afford kids sooner. But in doing so, I may have overlooked non-financial aspects of things we need to have in place before we have kids - most notably emotional stability in our relationship.

I've found that often, the more I put structure and expectations on a hobby, the less I enjoy it. I love writing, but if it were my job I would likely get frustrated because I have to do it for someone else, on someone else's schedule, etc. It would be great if she could get a children's book published, but step 1 is to do something fun and relaxing with no expectations beyond itself.

What about your actual job? Is it something you enjoy? Do you avoid doing it, or things related to it, in your spare time, because you do enough of it at work? (I ask because I do web design for a living, which I really like, but I generally turn down people's requests to help build websites in my own personal time. I'll just give them a bit of advice and send them on their way, because when I'm off the clock, I have different enjoyable things to focus on.)

I agree about no expectations beyond just doing something she enjoys. My hope is that once the depression is more under control, she'll have more energy for things, and if she's able to go back to working part-time (which she's indicated interest in doing once she can get a few months off to sort her life out), she'll still be able to support a few hours of volunteer work a week, a personal hobby, etc. Right now even the four hours of work a day seem to drain her to the point where the only other thing of significance she does on the average day is prepare a meal or two. That's what can't continue, because it's emotionally unsatisfying to her and exhausting to me due to the slack I have to pick up.

[Vlad!]

I enjoy my job quite a bit, which is actually why I don't spend a lot of time outside work doing development these days. I can let all that out at work. My non-work outlet is church, which is a lot of work as well but even more fulfilling. Since my natural inclination is to keep to myself and not need/want anyone else, I sometimes have to force myself to go to things, even though when I go to them I hugely enjoy them.

[Aaron]

Also, I think it's super awesome that murlough found the courage and humility to be open about his marital troubles on the phorum, and then ewok was able to come forward and provide some incredibly valuable perspective. Amen!

I appreciate our small community and the fact that we can share things.  When I went through my situation last year, I felt relief when I could talk about it with others here.  It is good that we can discuss our issues and pray for each other.

[murlough23]

I'm grateful as well that I can have a meaningful discussion about stuff like this with you guys, despite the fact that we've had past (or even ongoing) petty arguments about music and movies and theology and whatever elsewhere. You've all shown yourselves to be very understanding and compassionate beings when the real stuff of life comes up in conversation.

Part of the reason I felt comfortable posting about this here is because you guys have no personal stake in the awkward group dynamics that could be caused by a marriage falling apart in the midst of the group of friends. I've shared all of this information with friends from our Bible Study group who have prayed for us and some have taken practical measures to help us out, and I know my wife has done the same, but still there's a bit of weirdness there (like when we all split into small groups and pray for one another, and we both clearly know the other one's venting about us in some fashion in the other room). I trust those friends to be wise about it and not take sides or anything. But still, it's much easier to be candid in this context.

[RedcoatJones]

I don't have a lot to add to the amazing insight contributed here, but please know I'm praying for you guys.

My wife has also dealt with two bouts of depression, but it was more similar to the ones you described about yourself. Both involved major hormonal swings (once when quitting birth control pills, once following the birth of our daughter).

Our experience, though, is that the medicines really are a crapshoot, and what works for one may not work for another. We tried Effexor (awful side effects - made her stupid. As in could barely complete basic math and she appeared stoned out of her mind) and Xanax (made her nauseous) before settling on Paxil.

Having something to focus on is critical (even if it is short-lived). And be as supportive as humanly possible. But do NOT do it alone. I'm glad to hear that you are reaching out to flesh and bone friends, too. Even if they don't completely understand, they know enough to see that you're hurting and need prayer/support.