Predestination

[BigBird]

http://www.the-highway.com/fall_Sproul.htmlclicky poo

[Guest]

And your point would be?  What do theories about the fall of man have to do with the quoted scripture?

[Vlad!]

It does seem to suggest that we are accountable for our own actions, which should seem to counter the Total Depravity doctrine...

[Josh]

It does seem to suggest that we are accountable for our own actions, which should seem to counter the Total Depravity doctrine...

We are most certainly responsible for our own actions.  

[Skrappybiskit]

It does seem to suggest that we are accountable for our own actions, which should seem to counter the Total Depravity doctrine...

Congratulations, that was a beautiful misrepresentation.

Skraps

[Vlad!]

Congratulations, that was a beautiful misrepresentation.

Well, you DO recall my point (which nobody really even bothered to challenge, I am disturbed to note) that if the total depravity is indeed both universal and intended by God, there's no way hell can be just. So you either have to admit that TP is flawed or our idea of a just God is.

[oneafroboy]

Hey, I've been staying out of this debate so far, because I've been in so many dealing with predestination and free will. I did want to address what you said Vlad!, about either our idea Total Depravity being flawed or idea of a just God being flawed. Perhaps our idea of a just God is flawed. The best way I can answer your question is with Scripture. Paul actually answers this question in his letter to the Romans. You may have read this before, and there's no harm in repeating it, but if you haven't, then here it is. (This is for everyone by the way, not just Vlad!. Also, notice the "What if" in the second piece...I just took notice of that myself.)

Romans 9:14-16
"What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effor, but on God's mercy."

Romans 9:19-24
"One of you will say to me: 'Then why does God still blame us? For who resists His will?' But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
"What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory--even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?"