Ways of looking at morality

[Vlad!]

[oneafroboy]

Interesting and good thoughts there, my amored assault duck. (Well, I would've said "my man", but...)

Yes, it is interesting how liberating God's grace is, and yet transforming as well. Even though we are freed from the Law, we actually begin to strive to obey it! (The Law being summed up in Love--of God and of your fellow human being.)  

I would agree with you that perhaps the "truth" lies somewhere in between at least two of them--arteology and deontology. I'm not sure about teleology. I've never been an "ends-justifies-the-means" kind of a guy; but, as we're discussing in the thread about Nuclear Warfare, I don't know.... Do the ends *never* justify the means? Or are there just exceptions to the "rules", so that to reach some "ends" certain "means" aren't wrong. For example, "Thou shall not kill (or murder, as translated in more recent versions of the Bible)". But many would agree that the killing that went on to stop the Axis in WWII was good. So, did the ends justify the means? Or is this an exception, and so war is an acceptable and moral place to kill. I don't know...

[Vlad!]

I would agree with you that perhaps the "truth" lies somewhere in between at least two of them--arteology and deontology. I'm not sure about teleology. I've never been an "ends-justifies-the-means" kind of a guy; but, as we're discussing in the thread about Nuclear Warfare, I don't know.... Do the ends *never* justify the means? Or are there just exceptions to the "rules", so that to reach some "ends" certain "means" aren't wrong. For example, "Thou shall not kill (or murder, as translated in more recent versions of the Bible)". But many would agree that the killing that went on to stop the Axis in WWII was good. So, did the ends justify the means? Or is this an exception, and so war is an acceptable and moral place to kill. I don't know...

To "assist you in yout thinking" (i.e. not to convert you into this way of thinking), here's a way in which a Christian could be a telelologist and still embrace Christian ethics:

Let's say I want to go to heaven. I have a strong sense of preservation; I read the passage in Matthew about the sheep and the goats, and I'm darn sure which of those I want to be. So I feed the poor. I visit those in jail. I try to treat everyone as if they were Christ. I do all this because I want my eternal soul to be somewhere with climate control. So I am doing all this out of self-interest, but you can't deny that good has been done. A teleological perspective would say that I have done good even with selfish motives, while an aretological view would criticize me for being base and self-serving, regardless of how many people I have helped. You see?

[Skrappybiskit]

These are interesting ways of looking at morality, and I think the truth involves a bit of puzzle-piecing.

I have a related question, though. Can one ever arrive at a system of morality based on logic alone?

Skraps

[GusX:]

If morallity is to be based on something that could regulate it... Logic would not work...Due to the fact that Logic is not a constant  , Logic is opinion,  and Logic is not absolute truth - my answer would be No.. you could not arrive at a plausible system of morallity.


In this ..  it is much like law, you submit to it, till you get "skrewed over" then .. you kinda don't love it as mutch.... (Trust me, I thought noise polution was a good law, )

[oneafroboy]

Yes, I think you could. But you would still have to base your logic on something. You can't have logic without a foundation. Or then it's not really good logic. Everything builds upon presuppositions. Accepted "axioms". There are certain things we just hold to as true. Christian or otherwise.

Btw, I think this moral system, if were possible would be quite flawed. How do you through logic make fornication a sin? Or getting drunk? Or any number of things? I think eventually one would have to ask, where in the world do we get the right to say something is moral? Depending on your presuppositions, logic may lead one to believe that there is no such thing as morality. And I think we see that today...

[PriestofDasani]

From what you said about Aretology it sounds to me like it is saying that it is okay to sin as long as you know it's wrong, which obviously against scripture. From what you said later though this doesn't seem to be the case. Could you possibly clarify a little?

[Vlad!]

GusX: I don't know about your logic, but logic is indeed a constant. Logic is a system of thinking based on certain undeniable principles. Reasoning using logic means starting from a point of agreement and moving to a point of contention using steps that can be proven as true. Aristotle defined "first principles" of logic that are true by their very nature and can be used as a basis for proving pretty much anything. That's the beauty of logic, and it is a powerful took indeed.

With this said, though, any moral system that relies completely on logic will probably be flawed. A moral system needs (amoong other things) a reason. Logic can provide a reason, but it may be one that not everyone agrees with or that is not absolute. For instance, were I to attempt to logically deduce a system of morality, it would probably be something like this: the most moral act is the one that benefits the most people. The most immoral act is the one that harms the most people. This is a decent system, and many atheists use this or a hybrid thereof, but usually something else is involved. Kant suggested a universal natural (moral) law in his writings on deontology. Most religions believe in a god or gods who determine moral law. Some believe in the godhood of everything, so harm to one thing is harm to us all.

Dasani: That's a good question. Aretology sort of implies that a virtuous person naturally tends to (want to) do right. So while Paul says "I find this law at work within me...that whatever I know is good I do not do", he knows what is good and wants to do it. Therefore, Paul is an ethical person (according to this). Naturally, those (such as Josh and BigBird) who believe that mankind is completely incapable of doing good on its own would either have to modify or completely reject an aretological viewpoint.

[GusX:]

logic is indeed a constant. Logic is a system of thinking based on certain undeniable principles. Reasoning using logic means starting from a point of agreement and moving to a point of contention using steps that can be proven as true. Aristotle defined "first principles" of logic that are true by their very nature and can be used as a basis for proving pretty much anything. That's the beauty of logic, and it is a powerful took( L ) indeed.

 

Logic,  Is not a constant,  ... Only God, is constant... Logic changes...  Even change is not a constant = for if God comes again, changes everything... or stops the whole concept of change as we know it.. it is no longer a constant.....


My best example,,  ----    The world is geocentric, and flat...  By all the logical thinking of the day, that was accepted and "true" ---  But it isnt and we know that to be true - if you used that logic today, you would be constant with yesterday, but you would be wrong... and hence Logic has changed .. to a heliocentric concept of the universe...      You can logically debate your fingers raw.. but YOUR STILL WRONG ... NOT RIGHT....  please never consider logic as GOD...   For something to be Right,, it does not have to be logical..  =


Logic is "The science or art of reasoning"   = perhaps what you start with as your pressuposition (/ opinion of something acording to the "facts" you find / but not necessaraly true)  determines if your answer is correct or incorrect, In the end,, what makes someones logic illogical.. YOUR OPINION/ LOGIC..   and if everyone's "logic" were a constant ( universal truth)  then this would not work....  true logic... would be ... indetermineable.  Certain things make "sense" to majority of people, but it's not to say that they aren't, incorrect..  



- Um,  reasoning using Logic....  Your point of agreement philosiphy is cute, but it would never work ... because you pervert the ground of agreement wiht your opinions and selfish goals...  for me this is not trying to get you to think anything...  Because quite frankly, Im to stubborn and firm rooted to change my  ideas, and you yourself fall under the same weakness.. It's a fact of life....    but not a constant...





How logical is it that God would kill His only son for all of us ?  - not very...    Even the concept of Love ( true love) makes no sense.... Lust ... makes sense.. but not love... why ? because true love is foreign to us because of sin,   lust is what has taken over...  

Logic can prove anything, I would agree with you, but as i said in my heliocentric / geocentric views of the universe,  You  still can be wrong...   .... ....

- reason in its plainest definition, is  " An explanation given for a belief" ...
- reasoning "The process of of reaching conclusions by careful and connected thinking , a line of argument, a presentation of reasons "  
- constant "Unchanging"
Reasoning with logic,,, has nothing to do with truth,, If you declare, God's word to be truth, then you would understand via reading the Bible, that God has written His moral code on our hearts, and the suppression of that truth is sinfullness going directly against God's desire for us....   That being to live a "Godly" life...


I guess what Ive tried to orate is ...  
Logic is not the end all be all...      God is the end all be all...
Logic is not a constant....     Only God is a true constant b/c HE LASTS FOREVER... FROM FOREVER...
Constant's  are only what is eternal, because , name anything that is a "constant" to you.... and In the end it falls when we loose earth and are left with us before God on judgement day...
Logic does not = truth
Logic = opinionated truth/ percieved truth...


Even my definitions I've used, everything I've said is not constant It dies...

Vlad -  If you still think that logic is a constant .. just say so.. don't give me your reasons... Because, I'm  just going to say the same thing I've just said,,,    


Actually,  as a sub point.....   kinda a  " p.s. "


     Logic in your arguement is not the constant,,  the constant is the undeniable principles / "first principles" because that is what you have agreed upon as to be the basis.. unchanging basis....

[Vlad!]

I find it to be ironic that you're attempting to use logic to convince me that logic is flawed.

Speaking of flawed, your arguments are quite flawed and show a lack of understanding about logic and logical reasoning. You're free to " say the same thing I've just said" if you want, but it would be a bad idea: you have some major problems.

My best example,, ---- The world is geocentric, and flat... By all the logical thinking of the day, that was accepted and "true" --- But it isnt and we know that to be true - if you used that logic today, you would be constant with yesterday, but you would be wrong... and hence Logic has changed .. to a heliocentric concept of the universe... You can logically debate your fingers raw.. but YOUR STILL WRONG ... NOT RIGHT.... please never consider logic as GOD... For something to be Right,, it does not have to be logical..

There's a difference between logic and empiricism. Empiricism (observation and experimentation) told the pre-Copernician world (with many exceptions; more on that in a minute) that the world was flat. They then used that as a premise for logical reasoning. The premise was false, therefore the conclusion was false. But the logic was still valid. You see, logic is independent of the premises and conclusions that it is associated with: logic can prove all sorts of false things if you start from a false premise. Does this mean logic is flawed? No, it means the premise (and the logician) is flawed.

Logic is "The science or art of reasoning" = perhaps what you start with as your pressuposition (/ opinion of something acording to the "facts" you find / but not necessaraly true) determines if your answer is correct or incorrect, In the end,, what makes someones logic illogical.. YOUR OPINION/ LOGIC.. and if everyone's "logic" were a constant ( universal truth) then this would not work.... true logic... would be ... indetermineable. Certain things make "sense" to majority of people, but it's not to say that they aren't, incorrect..

Again, you lack an understanding of logic. If something is illogical, it is proven such through logic. True logic, as you would probably call it, would be logic that starts with a true premise and uses universally true steps to achieve a result whose truth or falsehood can be objectively and concretely determined.

Logic in your arguement is not the constant,, the constant is the undeniable principles / "first principles" because that is what you have agreed upon as to be the basis.. unchanging basis....

But they are the first principles of logic. Using these principles, one can determine validity or invalidity of arguments and ideas. Using formal logic, derived from the first principles, Truth can be proven. The result of logical reasoning may not be constant (if the premises change), but the validity of the logic itself cannot be changed.
Consider this: one of the first principles of logic is the Law of Identity: A is A. Neither you nor I can alter that or deny it. Perhaps God can, but I would not want to live in a world where A is not A. So you and I have to agree on the law of identity.  

[Skrappybiskit]

Gus, think of logic as not so much a destination as a process. Logic should, when applied correctly, arrive at truth. There is some truth that transcends logic, as in truth that needs to be Biblically derived, but that truth is an of itself is also logical.

This is pretty basic, but if A = B, and C does not = B, then C is also not equal to A.

If A = B and C = D, then C not= A or B, and D not= A or B, and vice versa.

If A = B, C = D, nonC *may* be equal to A and B, but not C or D. Things like this, they are obviously true. Logic flows from such truisms. In fact, logic has been HUGE in the history of the church. One of the troubles we have today is that existentialism and such philosophies are essentially non-logical and in that they affect modern thinking, many people today have tossed thinking by the wayside, tossed logic down the drain.

Any proof of anything involves logic. If logic isn't constant, than in fact, Gus, your statement is null and void, because even though you may have attempted to use logic and failed, your position is untenable. You have undermined your own foundation.

Skraps

[GusX:]

My foundation is not logic.. Logic is the communicate of my Ideas - opinions - reasons -
My foundation for this argument is that God is a constant, but that is only from what He tells me, So how I could destroy my own foundation ???????????????  

    Our philosophies of the day have sidetracked the idea of ultimate logic..  I hold to that, but Logic is as you said, the process to get to the truth, Im only saying, that Logic is not GOD...  



thats it.....   GusX.




















Vlad, - in all honesty ,,  are you american ? - cuse i sense that you are - (   Not thinking any less of you because of that, im just putting two things together)




oh, and my using of "logic" is only the comunication of my ideas.. not trying to prove anything...   AND I KNOW WHAT EMPIRICISM IS  


Logic is affected by the particular roots one finds them in,  That is to say,,  Logic is  biased... and opinions... AND IT'S STILL NOT A CONSTANT...


Logic is flawed,, because your a sinner ... and you cannot think otherwise....    LOGIC IS TAINTED WITH SIN,, NOT JUST THE ANSWER , PREMISE.. ITS THE WHOLE DARN PROCESS...  
 And if A = A..  you know why? because God lets it be that in His grace, but you accept that , and I accept that because of our environment, it's only universal because they are the same thing,, However ? what does that have to do with logic being a constant.. ITS NOT.. once  the  "A" is gone.. then it no longer is a constant...  sheesh... You keep arguing something that is beyond me and you both,, WHY ? BECAUSE WERE NOT ETERNAL...  



Anyway, im tired of this topic,  it's opinion against opinion ....



Ive never said  that logic cannot bring about correct statements that are true,   or that the logic process is part of us as humans..  It's part of us man... ( another thing,  Telling me Im wrong and stupid does not further your argument... obviously if my logic is illogical your refuring to my conclusions...  my process of logic isnt the right way, neither is yours .. only God's...)    hence why i would motion us to stop this discussion lest I lose my mind  stay up till 3 typing out books and refrences...  ect ect.. and you just say "your unlearned" and life be rotton an miserable, and I quit university, and go insane....




 You frustrate me, not for any form of "stupidity" or lack of knowledge, or learning, or ideas, It mostly that you imply (from my stance, please correct me if im wrong - )  that if something is illogical It cannot be good..

[oneafroboy]

It's very interesting to watch a discussion on logic. It amuses me quite a bit, actually.

Well, for GusX's sake, I will say this: Logic (ie. human logic) yes is a process, but it is *not* perfect. I think after love it's the closest thing we have to understanding and imitating the thoughts of the Creator. Certain things, like A=A, B=C, but A does not equal B, then A does not equal C, is fine and dandy. But as things get more complicated, there's bound to be some error. As Gus said, we are sinful. I think it's dangerous to start thinking in the vein of Thomas Aquinas who argued that the human intellect was not corrupted when Adam and Eve fell and caused all future generations to be corrupted as well. The intellect is corrupt. Logic can only get us so far. Thankfully, God has given us a) His Word and B) His Holy Spirit along with our minds and hearts to understand the universe He has created and to discover truth and discern what is right. I'm not saying Vlad! and Skraps were saying the the human intellect is not corrupt, and I am not saying logic is bad, but I thought I would put this forward: every part of us is corrupted, including our minds.  

[DvChWi]

Could we say that pure logic is perfect?  Logic it self should always hold true, but its human practitioners can very easily err.

[oneafroboy]

Yes, we could, but can humans practice pure logic all of the time? I'm not saying it doesn't get us anywhere. It gets us pretty far. But at a certain point even our perception of logic can break down.  

[DvChWi]

Yes, we could, but can humans practice pure logic all of the time? I'm not saying it doesn't get us anywhere. It gets us pretty far. But at a certain point even our perception of logic can break down.

Yes, humans can certainly mess up logic, but at that point, I think it fails to be pure logic.

[Skrappybiskit]

Yes, humans can certainly mess up logic, but at that point, I think it fails to be pure logic.

Vlad would probably argue that God is in his essence a logical God, and noncorrupt human logic is indeed a reflection of Him. The problem is, of course, the humans are fallen, and the unregenerate especially are prone to make logical errors. Especially when they are intellectually committed to a certain argument. Like atheism.

But I do have to say this: if the basis upon which pure logic is sound (the simple A and B formulas for instace) it stands to reason that the entire process is, as long as it's applied properly.

But think for a second, Gus, if you really believe that logic is flawed so much that you can't trust your own reasoning, how do you function? You can boil the Bible down to a few axioms and live by them, but that's not going to cover the broad range of circumstance. And you can take observations about things, like for instance that hitting your mother with a frying pan doesn't make your relationship with her any better, but how you apply that will inevitably be a result of the very logic that you're saying is flawed. You've undermined your own arguament.

Without logic, and mistrusting logic, you are in fact the one turning everything into an opinion. Your own statement is unprovable, because after all, how can I trust the logic behind it? And in that case, you've really said and proved nothing at all.

Skraps

[Vlad!]

It's too bad that we kinds got off the original topic, which I thought was a good one, but I enjoy discussing logic. I'm glad to see some new faces in this discussion, but let me respond to GusX first:

Vlad, - in all honesty ,, are you american ? - cuse i sense that you are - ( Not thinking any less of you because of that, im just putting two things together)

I am, though I don't see what it has to do with anything. There are as many illogical Americans as there are illogical Canadians, percentagewise.

oh, and my using of "logic" is only the comunication of my ideas.. not trying to prove anything... AND I KNOW WHAT EMPIRICISM IS

You don't have to get excited...I didn't know if you understood the difference or not, but by your response I assumed you didn't. Logic isn't a form of communication, logic is a process of reasoning. Communication is usually where logic (which is more pure than language) gets warped and twisted...especially with English.

Logic is affected by the particular roots one finds them in, That is to say,, Logic is biased... and opinions... AND IT'S STILL NOT A CONSTANT...

Logic is unaffected by opinion. I'm sorry if you think differently, but you're wrong: logic is what it is, and what it is would be a formal set of laws and facts that allow us to reason.

Logic is flawed,, because your a sinner ... and you cannot think otherwise.... LOGIC IS TAINTED WITH SIN,, NOT JUST THE ANSWER , PREMISE.. ITS THE WHOLE DARN PROCESS...

My sinfulness has nothing to do with logic. Logic may be the product of a fallen mind, but it is not invalid or tainted. In fact, logic comes from God Himself! So why does sin invalidate logic in your eyes?

And if A = A.. you know why? because God lets it be that in His grace, but you accept that , and I accept that because of our environment, it's only universal because they are the same thing,, However ? what does that have to do with logic being a constant.. ITS NOT.. once the "A" is gone.. then it no longer is a constant... sheesh... You keep arguing something that is beyond me and you both,, WHY ? BECAUSE WERE NOT ETERNAL...

Once A is gone, it still is what it is: gone. The nature of eternity is not fully graspable by our finite minds, but what does this have to do with logic?

Anyway, im tired of this topic, it's opinion against opinion ....

Actually, that's one of the beneifts of logic: it is greater than an opinion. If a truth has been proven through logic, it is true as long as the premises hold true. If you reject everything, even logic, as merely an opinion that has no more weight than anyone else's opinon, you undermine your right to even argue your own case.

Ive never said that logic cannot bring about correct statements that are true, or that the logic process is part of us as humans.. It's part of us man... ( another thing, Telling me Im wrong and stupid does not further your argument... obviously if my logic is illogical your refuring to my conclusions... my process of logic isnt the right way, neither is yours .. only God's...)

I'm not telling you that you're stupid, and (unlike you) I'm not (at least, I don't think I am) ranting. But I'm not just telling you that I think you're wrong, I'm trying to give solid reasons WHY you're wrong. Just saying something doesn't make it so; you have to back it up.

hence why i would motion us to stop this discussion lest I lose my mind stay up till 3 typing out books and refrences... ect ect.. and you just say "your unlearned" and life be rotton an miserable, and I quit university, and go insane....

You are free to leave this discussion any time you would like. I don't want to make your life miserable, but I'm not going to back down from what I believe is correct...

You frustrate me, not for any form of "stupidity" or lack of knowledge, or learning, or ideas, It mostly that you imply (from my stance, please correct me if im wrong - ) that if something is illogical It cannot be good..

If something is illogical it can still be good. Heck, sometimes I think God is supremely illogical, but He's still good.  

[Vlad!]

Sorry for the double post, but I figured you might want to take a break after that first novel

Could we say that pure logic is perfect? Logic it self should always hold true, but its human practitioners can very easily err.

I agree with this. Well, that's not true; I mostly agree with this. I would hesitate to call logic perfect, even pure logic. And logic is what it is (law of identity, remember ), and it's not inherently evil or good. What it IS is a tool by which things can be proved. I can use logic to prove all sorts of false things; remember, you must separate logic from its premises. So even if I'm wrong when I use logic, the logic isn't bad, it's how i use it that's bad. So there's not "pure" and "impure" logic, there's just pure and impure uses of logic.

Yes, we could, but can humans practice pure logic all of the time? I'm not saying it doesn't get us anywhere. It gets us pretty far. But at a certain point even our perception of logic can break down.

One important aspect of logic is that it's self-validating. That is, when you get something wrong with logic, you can prove it's wrong using that same logic. So you can see that the falsity comes not from a flaw in the logic but in a flaw of its use.

Your point is excellent, Skraps, and I tried to touch on what you said when I mentioned that he was using logic to convince me that logic is flawed.

You can boil the Bible down to a few axioms and live by them, but that's not going to cover the broad range of circumstance.

But, see, you can't even trust the Bible! Those who created the canon applied what was (at least in part) a logical process to assemble what we today call the Bible. So if you don't trust logic, how can you trust the logic of people 1700 years ago to assemble what has become the basis of your faith?

[oneafroboy]

I agree with you Vlad!. When I said our perception of logic can be flawed or imperfect, I also imply that that affects our *use* of it, which is in turn flawed, also. That's why it's good to have others validate your conclusions with you. There's less of a chance that so many ppl would err in the use of logic. (This would only not work if there was a systematic flaw that spanned all people or most people.)

Anyway, I agree with the distinction between the use of logic and logic itself. Logic is logic--a tool we can use to arrive at conclusions based on presuppositions to try and derive or verify truths. The use of logic is where our corrupted natures can come in and mess things up.  

[polka_dot]

I am, though I don't see what it has to do with anything. There are as many illogical Americans as there are illogical Canadians, percentagewise.

Oh, I beg to differ!  =)

This is a terribly interesting discussion, though I'm not going to get involved, as I'm supposed to be writing a binary search tree program in Prolog right now.

But I'm going to say that God is logical, and though we often fail at using logic properly, it doesn't change the fact that the world is logical.  And I'd also like to say that I take way too many classes in logic at school.  And that the symbols in logic classes are fun to draw.

[GusX:]

Vlad -   the only reason i asked if you were american was to prove a point to a professor.. It's all good man.

And yes, I must use logic to prove your logic flawed, but unfourtunately, Since Logic is a process -by your account ( and I'm not disagree'n)- that we all use,  Of course I use it,  and Prove some logical statement to be right, even if all of you prove it, I can say  thats your opinion, and.... Your logic becomes wrong....  And the argument dives into an entanglement of nonsensical crap...     I'll be frank with you man,  Your smart, quick, logical, and amazing, I admire you for that.   But for me,  I'll stick with some blind truth/ things taught to me by professors, and Pastors..  here and there..  I don't need a reason to do things, It just has to work  - sure im pragmatic, So be it.            

                                                                                                                            - Saves me  -