Wheat & Tares

[BigBird]

Matthew 13:24-30
 Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.

"But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.

"But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.

"The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'

"And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves *said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?'

"But he *said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.

'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.""'

I read this and found it very interesting. What do you think?

[Harenil]

Ive alway liked that parable...

[shawna]

This parable is actually very comforting, in how God wanted to preserve the wheat, and how He'll reap the wheat and put it in His store house.
But I was wondering, what does that mean to Christians that He left the tares there to grow with us?  nebody?

[Harenil]

The tares are left there in order to help us through trials. They are 'growing' with us in order to show how fortunate we are that God came to save us... Thats what I think.

[standman87]

This parable is actually very comforting, in how God wanted to preserve the wheat, and how He'll reap the wheat and put it in His store house.
But I was wondering, what does that mean to Christians that He left the tares there to grow with us?  nebody?

"'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?' But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.'"

If God wiped out the evil in this world, wouldn't he kill us all?
 

[Vlad!]

This verse definitely seems to support the idea of predestination. But the analogy breaks down: who created the tares? This parable suggests that the 'enemy' did, but in reality God created everyone. This story would imply more that God created some and Satan created others.

The tares are left there in order to help us through trials. They are 'growing' with us in order to show how fortunate we are that God came to save us... Thats what I think.

Look down on those who aren't saved. Think to yourself "thank God I'm not in their shoes!" After all, they were arbitrarily chosen for hell, and there's nothing they can do about it. That's the Christian way.

I want to say more on this subject, but I'm super-busy with projects and exams right now. Maybe next week...

[Josh]

I really hate this thread; I think it's tareible.

[BigBird]

This parable suggests that the 'enemy' did, but in reality God created everyone.

Where does the Bible say that?

Look down on those who aren't saved. Think to yourself "thank God I'm not in their shoes!" After all, they were arbitrarily chosen for hell, and there's nothing they can do about it. That's the Christian way.

At least as long as someone is alive, they have a "chance" of being a Christian. We can't tell the difference by looking. That's kinda the point of the parable I think...

Deuteronomy 2:30-34

"But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the LORD your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today.

"The LORD said to me, 'See, I have begun to deliver Sihon and his land over to you. Begin to occupy, that you may possess his land.'

"Then Sihon with all his people came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz.

"The LORD our God delivered him over to us, and we defeated him with his sons and all his people.

"So we captured all his cities at that time and utterly destroyed the men, women and children of every city. We left no survivor.

So is God inconsistant or what!? I actually really care about this issue...

[Vlad!]

Where does the Bible say that?

"But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.

The man didn't plant the tares, someone else did. So the Bible doesn't say that Satan created some people, but the parable suggests it when applied to reality. This parable suggests to me God creating some people, and then one day He looks down and goes "Oh my me, what are these other people doing here? I sure didn't stick them in there!"

[Harenil]

Remember, there is such a thing as reading too deep into a parable... a 'tare' can't be saved. They are not chosen by God.

[linds]

This verse definitely seems to support the idea of predestination. But the analogy breaks down: who created the tares?...

... After all, they were arbitrarily chosen for hell, and there's nothing they can do about it. That's the Christian way.

who created the tares?  what if the tares are not symbolizing non-believers, but symbolize non-belief itself.  the tares, in essence, are sin.  we all believe that it was through the enemy in the garden of eden that sin came into the world.  
for all have sinned (and become like tares) and fallen short of the glory of God...

also, i believe that no one was chosen for hell.
we ate the apple, we were in hell.  we were damned.
however, in God's infinite grace, he chose people to heaven.

i think this parable makes perfect sense.


One more Thing:
Remember that the Most Important Part of Bible Interpretation is: Interpret the unclear passages with the clear passages.
If a parable does not make sense, interpret it with the parts of the Bible that do make sense; not vice versa.  This may sound elementary, but it's really, really Important.

(notice my capitalization skills. they do exist. )

[oneafroboy]

for all have sinned (and become like tares) and fallen short of the glory of God...

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm picking on you, but believe me I'm not. I believe you've taken this verse out of context. This verse in fact is not talking about the universiality of the human condition, which is sinful.

Here is the verse in its appropraite context:

Romans 3:22-24
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who belive. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Clearly, the all in here is referring to Christians *only*: "all who believe". I am not saying that we (ie all human beings) aren't all sinners, but this verse is often inappropriately used to back up that statement.

This is a better verse:

Romans 3:9
...We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthlesss; there is no one who does good, not even one."

Pretty powerful. Apart from God, *no one* does good. Not even one.

(Once again, I'm not picking on anyone. This is just something I've noticed before other places, and it came up here, so I thought I would point it out. It was in fact first pointed out to me last year by my Bible teacher.)

The only problem with your interpretation, linds, I see, is why can the workers not tell the difference between the wheat and tares if they are people and sin, rather than saved sinners and unsaved sinners? Burning up the tares seems like an approprate metaphor for Hell. The storehouse heaven. I think we see the same allegory in John 15.

John 15:5-6
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branchesare picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

The speaker here is Jesus, and He is talking to His disciples. Here, we see that there is a difference between ppl who are children of God--those who are branches off of the True Vine (who is Jesus), and those who are branches that have been "cut off" (see John 15:2), and no longer "remain" in Him.

But, wait! There's more (John is such a good book).

Earler in the book, Jesus says there are children of Abraham, ie. children of God, and children of Satan.

John 8:31-47
The Children of Abraham

31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
33They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants[2] and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"
34Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.[3] "
39"Abraham is our father," they answered.
"If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would[4] 40 do the things Abraham did. As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the things your own father does."
"We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself."

The Children of the Devil

42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

Jesus himself said there are children of God and children of Satan. Wheat and tares. Those sewn by God and those sewn by Satan. I don't think this implies that God didn't create everyone. I think this simply shows a state of the soul. Those who are not saved are salves to sin, and their father is Satan. (But don't forget, even when we were sinners, still enemies of God, God still chose to save us...see Romans 5:8.)

And there's more! (I promise, this is it.)

Here, Jesus clearly explains how Divine grace works.

John 10:22-30
22Then came the Feast of Dedication[2] at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. 24The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ,[3] tell us plainly."
25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[4] ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

There you have it. I don't think there's any need for me to explain this passage. It's pretty clear. (Btw, the Jews got really upset with Jesus over these things and got ready to stone him.)

Hope that was helpful. Linds is certainly right, though. If you have trouble with Scripture, compare it with *other* Scripture that is more clear.

[Vlad!]

Sa-weet...another chance to argue for free will. Boy, I can't wait

Ok, let's get this party started:

who created the tares?  what if the tares are not symbolizing non-believers, but symbolize non-belief itself.  the tares, in essence, are sin.  we all believe that it was through the enemy in the garden of eden that sin came into the world. 
for all have sinned (and become like tares) and fallen short of the glory of God...

I think it's pretty obvious the tares and the wheat are another version of the sheep and the goats: those destined for heaven and those destined for hell.

also, i believe that no one was chosen for hell.
we ate the apple, we were in hell.  we were damned.
however, in God's infinite grace, he chose people to heaven.

And if I choose to rescue one person from the path of an oncoming train but do not choose to rescue another, I have made two choices: I have saved one and doomed the other. Maybe it's not my fault that the one who is now resting in pieces was stupid enough to play on the tracks in the first place, but by choosing NOT to do anything, I still made a choice. You see?

And most Calvinists believe that God created man with a sin nature. We cannot help but be depraved, because that is how we were made. Thus, not only am I not saving the person, I am pushing him onto the tracks in the first place!

[GusX:]

This verse definitely seems to support the idea of predestination. But the analogy breaks down: who created the tares? This parable suggests that the 'enemy' did, but in reality God created everyone. This story would imply more that God created some and Satan created others.



Look down on those who aren't saved. Think to yourself "thank God I'm not in their shoes!" After all, they were arbitrarily chosen for hell, and there's nothing they can do about it. That's the Christian way.

I want to say more on this subject, but I'm super-busy with projects and exams right now. Maybe next week...

Vlad - for once, I will be frank with you -  Stop looking at life as if Logic is the answer -  Salvation is from God via the faith that He by grace has given us.  No matter how logical you are buddy, your never gonna get to heaven by thinking your way there.  (and as much as I always sound like a hater of logic, I'm not - so do not come at me with that)

The analogy breaks down, All analogies break down if you want them to -  this parable as  was said before hand by a wise sage.


" Remember, there is such a thing as reading too deep into a parable... a 'tare' can't be saved. They are not chosen by God."  

 

[Vlad!]

Vlad - for once, I will be frank with you -

Oh, good, you're usually so roundabout and vague, it's nice that you're cutting to the chase for once

Stop looking at life as if Logic is the answer -  Salvation is from God via the faith that He by grace has given us.  No matter how logical you are buddy, your never gonna get to heaven by thinking your way there.  (and as much as I always sound like a hater of logic, I'm not - so do not come at me with that)

I'm not saying that the flaws of this analogy disprove predestination, but I also doubt that this analogy definitively proves it either.

" Remember, there is such a thing as reading too deep into a parable... a 'tare' can't be saved. They are not chosen by God."

But why not? Are the tares not God's creation, the same as the wheat? Why should salvation be denied to some and not others? We are all equally sinful; why not give us all the same grace to transcend our sin nature through the blood of Christ? For Christ died for sins, once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring us to salvation. Christ's love is shown to us in this: while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

[oneafroboy]

Yep, this was going to head to predestination vs. free-will debate...it was predestined.  

Hey, Vlad!. Take a look at the passages I posted. And I think I posted a passage of Scripture that dealt with your wrestling with the thought that God would "make" some go to Hell. I think the Scriptures I posted give us a good idea of salvation, without using the word predestination. I also would like to remind the good pholks here that I really don't see our will and God's will as seen in the dichotomy of pred. and free will as oppsoing forces. I definitely believe in predestination. But I also believe that our free will played/plays a part in that. It's kind of like when James says prayer changes things. God had a plan, but because He is all-knowing (and I will always argue that He is), our prayers work perfectly within his plan just as our choices do when it comes to salvation.

Btw, I just noticed you did use one of the passages I quoted. I agree, Christ died for us while we were still His enemies. But who's the us? From an eternal aspect, it's just those who will have been saved by the end of our own space-time. And I really understand why you are struggling with this Vlad!. I've gone through this myself, and eventually, I have to accept the idea because God wouldn't lie to us. I also know God is not unjust. For me, I almost thought that we deserved Heaven, like we didn't deserve to go to Hell. But we do, and it's our own damned fault (not a curse word here). I could debate the whole idea for ages, but in the end, my opinion doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if I think free will and predestination work together to fulfill God's purposes or not. So, I will stop talking now and refer everyone back to the Scriptures.

Keep chewing guys. We're no longer dealing with milk but meet. It is a good and pleasing thing to the Father to wrestle with and seek His Truths.  

[Vlad!]

I never said I was struggling; I'm pretty well convinced that I'm right on this one  (actually, that's not totally true, but I couldn't resist saying it...)

In verse 24 of that same chapter in John, Jesus says "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." Does he not seem to be offering salvation to even these Pharasees who mock and question him?

Let's look at the latter half of that passage:

42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

They just made the claim that God is their father. Christ says "No! Because if he was, you wouldn't be having problems understanding me." He is not necessarily setting up a dichotomy here between children of God and children of the devil; He is the son of God, and he hears what God says. They are of the flesh (of this world), so they do not hear. But Christ is trying to get through to them, past the lies the devil has set up.

I just don't really think it makes sense for God to create people for the purpose of using them as firewood.  

[oneafroboy]

All right, so you're not struggling. Fair enough.

But in the passage, I think you missed: "47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

This makes it pretty clear. And don't forget the sheep passage. How do you explain what Jesus says about His sheep (there is already a set, specific group of ppl labeled His sheep even before they are "called")? How do you explain that *only* God's sheep hear Jesus' voice? I think that's pretty clear. (But I am honestly curious about how you explain this one away. I think this may have been the kicker for me.)

To make it easier, I'll post that passage again:

John 10:22-30
22Then came the Feast of Dedication[2] at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. 24The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ,[3] tell us plainly."
25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[4] ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

[linds]

I believe you've taken this verse out of context. This verse in fact is not talking about the universiality of the human condition, which is sinful.

you're right, it was taken out of context. i stand by the rest of what i said, though. (i think.    )

also, if anyone (um...vlad? ) wants the conversation to be steered away from the reoccuring topic of predestination, why don't we look at this parable as it might relate to the end times?  
if it were applicable to the end times, it would suggest that non-believers are "raptured," if you will, before believers.  if that were so, wouldn't it discredit the "left behind" theory?
i'm just throwing out ideas here, nothing solid...

[oneafroboy]

Hey, you have an avatar of the Edge!

I don't know if I see that. Definitely, in the end, judgment day, God will take the saved and throw the unsaved into the lake of fire. But, I don't really see this parable relating to the end times. I don't think the focus is on the order of what happens in the end. (I can't be sure, but that's just not something that struck me about it.)

But hey. I wouldn't mind discrediting Christian pulp fiction.    

[BigBird]

O.K. Lets try this:

Matthew 26:21-25
As they were eating, He said, "Truly I say to you that one of you will betray Me."

Being deeply grieved, they each one began to say to Him, "Surely not I, Lord?"

And He answered, "He who dipped his hand with Me in the bowl is the one who will betray Me.

"The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."

And Judas, who was betraying Him, said, "Surely it is not I, Rabbi?" Jesus *said to him, "You have said it yourself."

So Jesus tells Judas that Judas will betray Jesus, eh?

So after this point, can Judas then make the decision not to betray Jesus?
If he can, then Jesus can be wrong. But, since Judas says "not I", he is not trusting Jesus anywho. If he trusts Jesus, then he's screwed too.

What is Judas to do at this point? Where's his free will?

[Harenil]

He says he won't. God didn't force him, he just knew he would make that choice. Of course, God knew from the beginning of time that he would make that choice. We have free will to choose what God has ordained.

[oneafroboy]

Big Bird:

I don't think that at all proves the non-existence of Judas' free will. Since Jesus was God, He correctly predicted future. Judas' future action is not dependent on whether Jesus predicted it or not. If Jesus had not predicted it, it still would've happened. Remember, time for us is linear (or at least our perception of it), but I dont think this is true for God. He knew what Judas was going to do. He did not make Him. Just remember that the action is independent of the prediction.

[linds]

in romans 10, i believe, paul says that God hardened pharoah's heart.
an action verb-- hardened.  i think that implies a little more than foreknowledge.  again, we have to be careful to interpret unclear scripture with clear scripture.

[oneafroboy]

Yes, but that was Pharoah. Yes, I believe that God did harden Pharoah's heart. I also believe Pharoah hardened his own heart. (Actually I think it's in Romans 9.) But then in Romans 10, it also says that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Yes, people call. And then Jesus chose us and we did not choose Him. But wait, anyone who chooses to follow Jesus will be saved. Seems to me there's something deeper going on...

I'm not saying that God didn't "plan" for Judas to betray Him. I'm saying that the fact that Jesus predicted it does not show that Judas didn't have free will.

And as I've said before. There seems to be a mystery between God's will and our will. Together they work into His plan for the good of all who are His and to His glory. I still don't see why it's just one way or the other, when I think the Bible presents both in a non-contradictory fashion. Certainly it is a paradox, but a true paradox nonetheless.

[linds]

it is a mystery, and we're not going to resolve this ancient debate here in the ol' phorum, as brilliant as we all are...

[Vlad!]

it is a mystery, and we're not going to resolve this ancient debate here in the ol' phorum, as brilliant as we all are...

That's kind of a defeatist attitude. Maybe we won't reach a definitive "solution" that pleases everybody (or, more important, that is right), but even an intelligent discussion can cause those on both sides to open their eyes and see more of what the other believes.

[linds]

there's nothing wrong with discussion, or even debate, but it is important sometimes to get a little perspective.  i guess what i'm trying to say is that (as you said, vlad) there isn't always a neat, tidy resolution at the end of a debate, so we shouldn't expect one.
i think that i often expect a neat little resolution, and it's important that i personally understand that that is not always the case.
does that take the value away from the act of discussion? not at all.
however, i think that our human pride sometimes makes us think that we can understand all that there is about God. i often think that i have everything solved, but it's better, i think, for me to be humbled by my realization of the mystery of God.  

[Harenil]

at our Bible study tonight, we talked about Ananias and Saphirra. (sp? didn't pay attention to the spelling...) Very scary.