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smartash
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« on: July 07, 2003, 08:41:58 PM » |
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mark, i just wanted to commend you on your essay on free will. i am a calvinist and as such believe strongly in the concept of predestination, but i applaud your most impressive debunk-ing of the points of calvinism. its one of the most well-read, intelligent anti-calvinistic arguments i've ever heard and i wanted to thank you for your informed view!
in fact, at the moment i'm working on staff with a youth mission camp called Impact Virginia, where teenagers work on houses, habitat-for-humanity-style. not only am i on the worship/drama team and leadership staff, but my work also includes counseling and general hanging-out with the teenagers, one of the most rewarding jobs ever.
well, one of the kids and i got into a discussion last summer about romans 9, and what predestination means, etc. he came back this year all ready to debate against my calvinistic views. instead of deterring him from his choice of viewpoints, i remembered your essay i read a few days ago and just printed it off for him to read so his particular choice has a little more grounding.
so thank you! i think i'll keep my calvin, but its so refreshing to hear an informed rebuttle!
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\"I haven't come for only you, but for my people to pursue. you cannot care for Me with no regard for Her; if you love Me you will love the Church.\"
\"i am a whore i do confess, i put You on just like a wedding dress and i run down the aisle, run down the aisle. i'm a prodical with no way home, i put You on just like a ring of gold and i run down the aisle, i run down the aisle to You.\"
-- Derek Webb, She must and Shall Go Free
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DvChWi
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« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2003, 08:47:32 PM » |
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Where is this essay?
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Fun facts about Chuck Norris:
Newton's Third Law is wrong: Although it states that for each action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, there is no force equal in reaction to a Chuck Norris roundhouse kick.
Chuck Norris can divide by zero.
Chuck Norris CAN believe it's not butter.
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leinad
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« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2003, 11:18:13 PM » |
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Where is this essay? Right here. Mark posted it a while ago (December 2002 if memory serves correctly), so it has gotten somewhat buried, but I'm glad smartash was able to find it. |
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« Last Edit: July 07, 2003, 11:19:10 PM by leinad »
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Vlad!
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« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2003, 11:28:34 AM » |
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mark, i just wanted to commend you on your essay on free will. i am a calvinist and as such believe strongly in the concept of predestination, but i applaud your most impressive debunk-ing of the points of calvinism. its one of the most well-read, intelligent anti-calvinistic arguments i've ever heard and i wanted to thank you for your informed view!
in fact, at the moment i'm working on staff with a youth mission camp called Impact Virginia, where teenagers work on houses, habitat-for-humanity-style. not only am i on the worship/drama team and leadership staff, but my work also includes counseling and general hanging-out with the teenagers, one of the most rewarding jobs ever.
well, one of the kids and i got into a discussion last summer about romans 9, and what predestination means, etc. he came back this year all ready to debate against my calvinistic views. instead of deterring him from his choice of viewpoints, i remembered your essay i read a few days ago and just printed it off for him to read so his particular choice has a little more grounding.
so thank you! i think i'll keep my calvin, but its so refreshing to hear an informed rebuttle! I'll tell Mark you said something (he's a pretty busy guy, and doesn't always stop by here a lot like I do ^_^). I appreciate open-mindedness, since it's the only way we'll ever get anything figured out.. |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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smartash
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« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2003, 12:07:59 PM » |
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yeah, amen to that!
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\"I haven't come for only you, but for my people to pursue. you cannot care for Me with no regard for Her; if you love Me you will love the Church.\"
\"i am a whore i do confess, i put You on just like a wedding dress and i run down the aisle, run down the aisle. i'm a prodical with no way home, i put You on just like a ring of gold and i run down the aisle, i run down the aisle to You.\"
-- Derek Webb, She must and Shall Go Free
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beautifulmess
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« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2003, 12:37:15 PM » |
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I just read it for the first time and it is an excellent piece. Wow...
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My Journal*My Poetry\"The quiche made me look fat.\" --Kirk, from Gilmore Girls when Lorelai asked why he was in a hot dog suit
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rebel546
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« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2003, 04:12:42 PM » |
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Wow! (he says, as he grins from ear to ear)... that's one of the best compliments I've ever received, I believe.
Thank you guys, for respecting my beliefs, and not trying to impress your own on me... I believe that's the best thing I've learned through taking a nose-dive into the free will/predestination debate... respecting other's beliefs...
-Mark
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Josh
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« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2003, 06:21:03 PM » |
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FREE WILL IS STUPID! CALVINISM ROCKS!
See, I can make an intelligent rebuttle, too! B)
Just kidding. Yeah, I guess it was one of the better free-will arguments I've read, though the idea of arguing in favor of something that I see as wholly unfounded seems almost oxymoronic. Mark and I had frequent debates on the subject back in the day, and he seems to know his stuff.
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rebel546
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« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2003, 09:22:14 PM » |
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I hope you were joking about that.
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Josh
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« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2003, 09:27:20 PM » |
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Oh, yeah, I was. The first two lines, anyway.
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smartash
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« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2003, 04:24:17 PM » |
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break it up ladies
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\"I haven't come for only you, but for my people to pursue. you cannot care for Me with no regard for Her; if you love Me you will love the Church.\"
\"i am a whore i do confess, i put You on just like a wedding dress and i run down the aisle, run down the aisle. i'm a prodical with no way home, i put You on just like a ring of gold and i run down the aisle, i run down the aisle to You.\"
-- Derek Webb, She must and Shall Go Free
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Josh
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« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2003, 04:46:30 PM » |
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For those who care about such things, my own essay on the subject of Calvinism will be up... eventually. It's tenatively titled "Too Many Choices," a phrase I lifted from a U2 song.
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smartash
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« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2003, 10:54:58 AM » |
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well, i will most certainly be eager to read it
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\"I haven't come for only you, but for my people to pursue. you cannot care for Me with no regard for Her; if you love Me you will love the Church.\"
\"i am a whore i do confess, i put You on just like a wedding dress and i run down the aisle, run down the aisle. i'm a prodical with no way home, i put You on just like a ring of gold and i run down the aisle, i run down the aisle to You.\"
-- Derek Webb, She must and Shall Go Free
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bloop
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« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2003, 10:14:50 AM » |
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It's well-written, and I'm as anti-Calvinist as they come. So, anyway, I'm with Mark on this one.
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Enjoy our pub. user/pw: thephorum Follow me on Grooveshark or Spotify. username: iceybloop |
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DvChWi
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« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2003, 08:55:18 PM » |
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Its well written, so well written that I can't possible reply to it in one small post. I would need to write up something big. But here is my problem: If we can choose salvation ourselves, then where does that put God? Is he in control of everything except for that? Where does his authority end? And if we choose to be saved or not, doesn't that affect other events as well? Does God have control in that? For example, if I chose not to be saved, the entire course of my life would be different. Does God now have to change his whole plan because of me? I think the answer has to be no.
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Fun facts about Chuck Norris:
Newton's Third Law is wrong: Although it states that for each action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, there is no force equal in reaction to a Chuck Norris roundhouse kick.
Chuck Norris can divide by zero.
Chuck Norris CAN believe it's not butter.
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Josh
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« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2003, 09:03:46 PM » |
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AUUUGGGGGHHHHHHH! Duck for cover! DV, allow me to give you an interesting little bit of Phorum trivia: A few months back, we logged away, like, eleven pages of the longest and most heated Calvinism/free will debate you've ever seen. Since then, we have all prayed to God daily that nobody would ever bring it up again at this board. =) Well, perhaps not. Actually, I was the ONLY Calvinist at the Phorum when we had the last debate, so it might be fun to revisit it now that the cavalry is here.  This should be interesting. |
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DvChWi
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« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2003, 09:12:36 PM » |
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Ok, to be safe, we should make a new thread if anyone feels a need to start this again.
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Fun facts about Chuck Norris:
Newton's Third Law is wrong: Although it states that for each action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, there is no force equal in reaction to a Chuck Norris roundhouse kick.
Chuck Norris can divide by zero.
Chuck Norris CAN believe it's not butter.
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Josh
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« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2003, 09:19:53 PM » |
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Yeah, I'm willing to stand up for Calvinism again. I'm not sure if Vlad! is up to defy me again, but maybe bloop or someone else will... one never knows with this crowd.
I'll probably post my essay on Calvinism tomorrow.
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rebel546
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« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2003, 09:34:15 PM » |
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I'm with Josh on this one... "ARGGG!"
If we debate, count me out. I found last year when I was into debating the issue, my scripture reading fell to simply trying to prove Calvinism wrong instead of letting the Word of Christ become myself and letting myself become vulnerable (the true way to read the Word) I became bitter at ol' Calvin and his pholk... so I'd rather not re-visit that... I know doctrine is important, and I pay attention to it, but I see no use in myself arguing any more.
In the words of the great Donnie Darko, "I just don't debate it any more." (but with a much different meaning, I might add)
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DvChWi
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« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2003, 09:36:49 PM » |
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Maybe we will wait for the essay, then strike! j/k.
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Fun facts about Chuck Norris:
Newton's Third Law is wrong: Although it states that for each action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, there is no force equal in reaction to a Chuck Norris roundhouse kick.
Chuck Norris can divide by zero.
Chuck Norris CAN believe it's not butter.
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Josh
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« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2003, 09:38:32 PM » |
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I'm up for the debate if anyone else is, and if Dv and smartash will back me up. I do tend to get bitter over such things, but I'll stand up for my faith as long as there's someone to stand up against. =)
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bloop
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« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2003, 09:42:43 PM » |
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I would hotly contest this at one point, but I've mellowed so I don't think I'd put up much of a fight. Now I'm like "dum dee dum...this is what I believe, but you could be right too". I would love to get some of my old pig-headedness back, but maybe it goes away with age as you realize there are more important things than Calvinism vs. Arminianism.
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Enjoy our pub. user/pw: thephorum Follow me on Grooveshark or Spotify. username: iceybloop |
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Josh
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« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2003, 09:43:42 PM » |
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That was mature and insightful, bloop. Boy, you're no fun...
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leinad
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« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2003, 10:25:20 PM » |
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If we can choose salvation ourselves, then where does that put God? Is he in control of everything except for that? Where does his authority end? And if we choose to be saved or not, doesn't that affect other events as well? Does God have control in that? Now here's an interesting, somewhat related question: Does God have free-will? I took for granted that all Christians believed He did, but I recently found a Calvinistic site which argues that He doesn't, and that there is in fact no such thing as free-will. Now I'm not arguing for or against Calvinism here, I just thought that was an interesting question. It would seem to me that if He didn't have free-will, then He Himself would be operating under a pre-determined scenario, which could call into question whether or not He really is God. |
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Josh
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« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2003, 10:28:41 PM » |
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An interesting essay. By the definitions they're using, anyway, they might actually have a point; God is obviously free to make choices, but our entire faith rests on the idea that His very nature dictates that He will ALWAYS choose what is righteous, wise, and just.
Now, CAN He choose otherwise? Yeah, I suppose. But He won't. Ever.
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DvChWi
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« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2003, 10:33:10 PM » |
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Its all a matter of definitions. Carefully read what is being said at that site and notice the defintions of each term, "Free will" and "Free agency". And now, the the illustration, "Can God make a rock so big he couldn't move it?" Think about what that implies.
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Fun facts about Chuck Norris:
Newton's Third Law is wrong: Although it states that for each action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, there is no force equal in reaction to a Chuck Norris roundhouse kick.
Chuck Norris can divide by zero.
Chuck Norris CAN believe it's not butter.
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Josh
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« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2003, 10:36:56 PM » |
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"Can God make a rock so big he couldn't move it?" Ask any proffessor of philosophy; this is an absurd question. In fact, it's an impossible questions. English is the only language in which this question can even be asked. It's simply not possible to ask it in most other languages, and it really shouldn't be possible to ask it in English. |
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DvChWi
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« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2003, 10:40:29 PM » |
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I know its a dumb question, but it does illustrate a point about God's being bound by something, namely, his nature.
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Fun facts about Chuck Norris:
Newton's Third Law is wrong: Although it states that for each action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, there is no force equal in reaction to a Chuck Norris roundhouse kick.
Chuck Norris can divide by zero.
Chuck Norris CAN believe it's not butter.
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Vlad!
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« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2003, 02:07:46 PM » |
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Wow, I leave for a day and the phorum goes crazy!  I'm open to a free will/predestination debate, but in our debates we often end up ignoring the main points made by the other side. I know I've felt in our debates that you have glossed over some of what I consider to be my most convincing arguments, and I've heard you expressing the same frustration. In the end, it tends to be unproductive, make us bitter, and usually Josh gets upset and hurts himself Returning to seriousness, I feel that bloop's stance might be the best: as Steve Brown (yes, 89.1 listeners, THAT Steve Brown) once said, Christian tolerance is standing firm in what you believe and not compromising your ideals while acknowledging that you just might be wrong. I'm Vlad! from The Rebel Base and you think about that. (/obscure Steve Brown reference) |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Vlad!
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« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2003, 02:11:31 PM » |
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Ask any proffessor of philosophy; this is an absurd question. In fact, it's an impossible questions. English is the only language in which this question can even be asked. It's simply not possible to ask it in most other languages, and it really shouldn't be possible to ask it in English. I concur that it is an absurd question, but it's incorrect to say that English is the only language which allows this question. Although my Spanish can be generously described as 'bad,' I know that you can express that question in it. Probably every Latin-based language has some way of presenting this 'conundrum.' The problem isn't really with the precision of the language as much as the assumptions it's based on: that either answer proves that God is incapable of doing something. The correct answer, of course, is no: God can make a rock infinitely large, and He can also move it. |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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DvChWi
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« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2003, 05:04:56 PM » |
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I'm sorry if it seemed like I was trying to start up a big debate. It was just a simple observation, really. The way you guys talk about the last debate sounds like war vetrans talking about a war.  |
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Fun facts about Chuck Norris:
Newton's Third Law is wrong: Although it states that for each action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, there is no force equal in reaction to a Chuck Norris roundhouse kick.
Chuck Norris can divide by zero.
Chuck Norris CAN believe it's not butter.
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Josh
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« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2003, 05:22:36 PM » |
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Nah, no reason to be sorry, Dv. You didn't witness the last debate, so you couldn't know, and, like I said, I'm all for discussing the matter again.
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DvChWi
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« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2003, 05:30:31 PM » |
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You didn't witness the last debate, so you couldn't know Yet another war vetran like statement. =D |
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Fun facts about Chuck Norris:
Newton's Third Law is wrong: Although it states that for each action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, there is no force equal in reaction to a Chuck Norris roundhouse kick.
Chuck Norris can divide by zero.
Chuck Norris CAN believe it's not butter.
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Vlad!
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« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2003, 08:02:29 AM » |
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The way you guys talk about the last debate sounds like war vetrans talking about a war. What makes you think it wasn't?  |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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standman87
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« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2003, 10:10:21 PM » |
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Its well written, so well written that I can't possible reply to it in one small post. I would need to write up something big. But here is my problem: If we can choose salvation ourselves, then where does that put God? Is he in control of everything except for that? Where does his authority end? And if we choose to be saved or not, doesn't that affect other events as well? Does God have control in that? For example, if I chose not to be saved, the entire course of my life would be different. Does God now have to change his whole plan because of me? I think the answer has to be no. God can foresee what choices you will make and plan accordingly. |
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I tried to say the right things in the right way, but simple silence is the only way to conclude my attempt.
Ponderings and then restatements from both sides will cause more of the same.
So remember: Stan, yes, this man, gave his best and is leaving it up to you and Him to do the rest.
Farewell
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Josh
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« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2003, 10:17:08 PM » |
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God can foresee what choices you will make and plan accordingly. WOA! Now we've got God basing His plans around our decisions! No, no, no, that's not going to do at all! That would totally take away God's sovereignty; in fact, it would give us some degree of leverage and control over God! |
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DvChWi
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« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2003, 10:29:27 PM » |
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God can foresee what choices you will make and plan accordingly. See, thats my whole problem. God is now dependent on what we do, so he loses his sovereignty. That can't be right. [EDIT]I see Josh said the same thing already... |
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« Last Edit: July 21, 2003, 10:30:16 PM by DvChWi »
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Fun facts about Chuck Norris:
Newton's Third Law is wrong: Although it states that for each action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, there is no force equal in reaction to a Chuck Norris roundhouse kick.
Chuck Norris can divide by zero.
Chuck Norris CAN believe it's not butter.
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Josh
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« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2003, 10:35:58 PM » |
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By the way... sorry if it sounded like I was jumping all over you, Stanton. I didn't mean to sound like I was condemning you or dismissing your opinion without thinking it over.
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standman87
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« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2003, 10:41:27 PM » |
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WOA! Now we've got God basing His plans around our decisions! No, no, no, that's not going to do at all! That would totally take away God's sovereignty; in fact, it would give us some degree of leverage and control over God! God does not change His plans. He has planned from the beginning to condemn evil to hell and raise the righteous (or those credited with righteousness through faith) to Heaven. Yet God made us more special than all the animals because we were given free will of the mind. So in a very small sense God gave us some of His power when He made us in His image. |
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I tried to say the right things in the right way, but simple silence is the only way to conclude my attempt.
Ponderings and then restatements from both sides will cause more of the same.
So remember: Stan, yes, this man, gave his best and is leaving it up to you and Him to do the rest.
Farewell
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DvChWi
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« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2003, 10:46:03 PM » |
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God does not change His plans. He has planned from the beginning to condemn evil to hell and raise the righteous (or those credited with righteousness through faith) to Heaven. Yet God made us more special than all the animals because we were given free will of the mind. So in a very small sense God gave us some of His power when He made us in His image. Well, yes, thats a general plan, but we know from scripture that God has every detail under control. The reason we are more special than the animals is that we have eternal souls and because Christ died and for us so that we could be saved. So, to sum up my opinion:God has everything that ever has ever has been and ever will be totally planned out, down to every last detail. |
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Fun facts about Chuck Norris:
Newton's Third Law is wrong: Although it states that for each action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, there is no force equal in reaction to a Chuck Norris roundhouse kick.
Chuck Norris can divide by zero.
Chuck Norris CAN believe it's not butter.
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