Best album of the 90s...??

[JupiterCrash17]

Ok, this topic has probably already came across this board before but I'm just interested in what everyone's opinion is. So....what do you think is the best musical album of the 90s?

For me, I would have to go with either "Loveless" by My Bloody Valentine, "Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness" by Smashing Pumpkins,  or "OK Computer" by Radiohead, although there are numerous close honorable mentions IMO....

[frommetoyou]

Achtung Baby!

[untitled]

Baby One More Time!

[DvChWi]

OK Computer, Radiohead

[Josh]

Achtung Baby, hands down. In terms of craftsmanship, it's a tough call between Achtung and OK Computer, but Achtung is more influencial; I dare say that there would be no OKC without Achtung. And Bono's lyrics are, of course, much more poetic, hopeful, and moving.

Honorable mentions:

OK Computer
Over the Rhine- Good Dog Bad Dog
U2- Pop
 

[bdg13disciple]

you know, i just picked up a fresh copy of Achtung Baby about a week ago, and i was remembering how great an album it was . . . first one that came to mind when i saw the thread . . .


best of the whole decade though?  maybe. maybe not.  that's a lot of albums . . .


peace . . .
love . . .
bdg . . .

[Nathan]

My vote goes to Good Dog, Bad Dog, OtR's best album so far, imo. Not nearly as popular and influential as Achtung Baby or OK Computer, but just as impressive on the merits.

HM:

Achtung Baby - U2
OK Computer - Radiohead
Much Afraid - Jars of Clay
The Soft Bulletin - The Flaming Lips
With Abandon - Chasing Furies
Journey Into The Morn - Iona

NP: "Let That Be Enough" - Switchfoot (from another really good 90's album...)

[Josh]

Good Dog Bad Dog is certainly a valid choice, and, in terms of creative merit alone, it's neck and neck with Achtung. The songwriting is absolutely heartbreaking. "Latter Days" is enough to make a grown man cry, and "Etcetera Whatever" can be genuinely hard to listen to sometimes. A tremendously moving album.

[smartash]

sigh..........OK Computer

[DvChWi]

Why the sigh?  Reluctant to follow the crowd?

[smartash]

exactly. you just cant' argue with such a sure thing!

[Josh]

Yes, you can.

I maintain that Achtung Baby is more poetic and meaningful, and the fact that it was such an extreme reinvention is astonishing. You could aruge that the musicianship on OKC is superior, and the two albums are equally complex, but I think Achtung is the better album, and probably more important.

[DvChWi]

I think this is where the whole absolutes in arts thing comes in.  We could go back and forth forever about "OK vs. Achtung", but how could we really prove which is better?  Some people are just going to like one more than the other, regardless of what influence the other had.  Both Achtung, Baby and OK Computer are great albums, but OK Computet is just more impressive to me, with its wonderful arrangments and cool concept.  I do agree that its not as poetic as Achtung Baby, though.

[Josh]

We could go back and forth forever about "OK vs. Achtung", but how could we really prove which is better? Some people are just going to like one more than the other, regardless of what influence the other had.

This thread could use some better definitions. I was under the impression that we were discussing the BEST record of the decade, not our personal favorites. If ya'll prefer OK Computer personally, then that's fine with me, and I will even go as far as to say that I can understand that; the instrumentation is probably better, and it's got a more modern production.

But if we were to lay personal tastes aside and discuss which album is technically superior, then the debate would go a bit differently, I'm wager...

[JupiterCrash17]

Right...but as far as "best of the decade" goes....not only does this imply superior artistic integrity, musicianship, and quality (ie-production), but also social influence as well.  For example, look at Nirvana, the critically acclaimed 'best band of the 90s'. Nevermind was hailed by the critics as the best record not only because of just it's songs (whether being poetic, musically exceptional, etc) but because of its massive influence on society. I do agree that with that album (or rather maybe with the whole grunge/alt movement) alot of stereotypes, or 'doors' were broken down... they redefined the working class hero so to speak.  They showed that you could add depth and meaning to music while maintaining your integrity, and be successful.  Now I don't agree that Nevermind is the best of the decade, but a cd that is should at least have some sort of impact like that.  

"Loveless" by MBV was revolutionary in the concept of combining lush feedback and excellent production to create a 'musical wall of guitars'.  IMO, this album was way ahead of it's time, as it has influenced many of the bands today.  

Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness by SP was grandiose as well....and while it may not be the 'best of the 90s', it certainly is influencial as being the #1 best selling double cd of all time.  The production and musicianship was excellent as well. Billy Corgan tends to have a tendency to make sure it's that way...haha.

 And finally, OK Computer....yes it is genius. The quality of the music, concept and production...all amazing. There are so many influences in that record that you can hear...it's like art rock of the 70s mixed with bjork.  Very respected album by critics and musicians...I guess this was the record that really gave Radiohead credibility.

[Nathan]

We regularly complain that some of the best music out there gets ignored by critics and radio-stations. To now claim that the 'best' record of the '90's must be critically acclaimed and socially influential seems like a contradiction. I think 'best' and 'most important' are two different things.

NP: "Do Ya Realize??" - The Flaming Lips

[Josh]

Yeah, they are. That's why I'm saying that Good Dog and Achtung are both better albums than OK Computer.

[DvChWi]

Its not like Achtung was ignored by by the media and radio, from what I can tell.  I don't think OK Computer was played that much on rock radio(Correct me if I'm wrong).  BTW, what exactly are the standards for technical superiority?   We need a good, solid framework to really continue this.  And I need the mail guy to get me my Over the Rhine CD so I can hear if they are really as good as everyone is saying.  

[JupiterCrash17]

We regularly complain that some of the best music out there gets ignored by critics and radio-stations. To now claim that the 'best' record of the '90's must be critically acclaimed and socially influential seems like a contradiction. I think 'best' and 'most important' are two different things.

NP: "Do Ya Realize??" - The Flaming Lips

No, in this case I do not see it as a contradiction. "Best" and "most important" can be and in many instances are two different things, however what do you make of an album that may be great in all aspects but isn't noticed by the media and critics? I would call it a very good album for sure,..but being the defining album of a certain time period??  Not to say that critics and the media are always right or that you have to have high publicity ratings...but to menton an album that's worthy of being the most superior of a decade and not to have critical acclaim is stretching it a bit IMO.  I think in this case that the  'best' albums can be/are the 'most important'. Heck, even albums that are considered to be 'landmarks' or 'greatest of the decade' by some I would never even think of and look at all the critic's attention on them.

[Nathan]

Well, JC, I would agree with you if we were discussing the defining album of the 90's. But this thread seems to be about the best album. There are different ways of deciding something like that, but I think it sould have to do with the qualities of the album itself, not with how other people have reacted to it. Why is this a stretch?

I would also be interested to hear if anyone can explain the objective criteria of greatness. I feel like there must be at least some objectivity to it, but am not musically educated enough to define how and why that is.

[Josh]

Well, some of the things I always look for include:

Originality
Poetry
Thematic cohesiveness
Musicianship
Emotion/Passion
Variation (Not all the sounds sound simliar...)
Production

And it's also important to look at what is said in the lyrics; is it hedonistic or irresponsible, or does it reflect God's truth?

 

[DvChWi]

Here we go:
Originality
AB:  New sound for U2, interesting mix of stuff.  
OKC:To me, a totally new sound.  Beautiful arrangements, spacey guitars, soaring vocals
Poetry
AB: Ok, this wins this category.  AB has so many great. poetic lines.
OKC:Not really that poetic.  Has a minimilist lyrical style.
Thematic cohesiveness
AB:What exactly is the theme?  The dark side of love?  Thats my best guess.
OKC: When I listen to OKC, I think "Sci-Fi".  Has a strong anti-control, don't believe everything, the establishment-is-dehuminizing-you theme.

[DvChWi]

[Part 2, I hate this problem!]  
Musicianship
Both probably are about equal.  Great performances from both bands.
Emotion/Passion
AB:Lots of different emotions.  All very passionate in there delivery.
OKC: Emotion is here, but its more of a hopeless depression type thing.  York communicates this very well through his singing.
Variation (Not all the sounds sound simliar...)
Both succeed very well in this.
Production
AB:  As always, good work from Brian Eno and Co.
OKC:  Amazing, lush sound with great arrangements.  Creates mood like nothing else I have heard.

So, there you go.

[Josh]

Valid sum-up. A quick note on the themes: Achtung Baby can be summed up in two words, betrayal and redemption. Dark side of live is another good synopsis.

OK Computer seems to be about... greed. Power. Selfishness.

[JupiterCrash17]

Well, JC, I would agree with you if we were discussing the defining album of the 90's. But this thread seems to be about the best album. There are different ways of deciding something like that, but I think it sould have to do with the qualities of the album itself, not with how other people have reacted to it. Why is this a stretch?

I would also be interested to hear if anyone can explain the objective criteria of greatness. I feel like there must be at least some objectivity to it, but am not musically educated enough to define how and why that is.

I understand what you are saying, but who said that a 'defining' album couldn't be the 'best' album? Usually those that are considered to be 'defining' do have many superior characteristics, only difference is that more people have realized that.  However, I'm not saying it doesn't have to have mass appeal either....in fact, i wouldnt call most of the music that we tend to like to be 'people friendly' in the sense that it's radio popular or chart topping. Success doesn't neccessarily equal quality, however in some cases it is a byproduct.

Then again, this whole topic could be pointless since music is subjective. =D




 

[Nathan]

I understand what you are saying, but who said that a 'defining' album couldn't be the 'best' album?

Well, nobody. Both definitions could easily apply to the same album, I just don't see how either is dependent on the other. Comercial success can be a byproduct of excellence, but the absence of success doesn't imply the absence of excellence.

Anyway, you're right: this is at least partially subjective. I'm certainly not saying that Achtung Baby is not a valid choice. I think every album mentioned in this thread is a gem; you all have great taste.

EDIT: I'm assuming Baby One More Time was some kind of perverse joke.

[JupiterCrash17]

Well, nobody. Both definitions could easily apply to the same album, I just don't see how either is dependent on the other. Comercial success can be a byproduct of excellence, but the absence of success doesn't imply the absence of excellence.

 

Yeah i see what you're saying...and I agree with you; I guess I didn't explain what I was trying to say very well...haha oh well. maybe i confused myself  

[bloop]

I think there's a lot of good choices for this, with no clear winner (to me at least...I don't subscribe to Achtung ] OK Computer, or any of these other albums for that matter.  They all have a multitude of strengths that they play up expertly):

OK Computer (Radiohead)
Achtung Baby! (U2)
The Soft Bulletin (The Flaming Lips)
Automatic for the People (REM)
Siamese Dream or Mellon Collie (Smashing Pumpkins)
Pinkerton (Weezer)
Endtroducing... (DJ Shadow)
Grace (Jeff Buckley)

[Josh]

Bloop! Great to see you, dude. You should join and pop by here more often.

Automatic is a great choice, and would easily make my Top 10, but it has a few nagging, nitpicky problems that bug me sometimes. I'll go into those on another thread, though...

Grace is cool, too.

[bloop]

I registered.  This is a nice board.  I think I'll frequent it.

[Josh]

Glad to hear it. Every Phorum should have their own Bloop.

[Josh]

Okay, let's try this. I looked through my CD collection and came up with my Top 10 albums of the 90s. These are merely my personal favorites, not the most important or whatever.

1. Achtung Baby!- U2
2. Good Dog Bad Dog- Over the Rhine (the 2000 rerelease is better, but...)
3. OK Computer- Radiohead
4. Pop- U2
5. New Adventures in Hi-Fi- REM
6. Automatic for the People- REM
7. Birds of My Neighborhood- The Innocence Mission
8. Time Out of Mind- Bob Dylan
9. Out of Time- REM
10. Zooropa- U2

Now... discuss.

[frommetoyou]

You completely shunned Passengers. How could you? (Actually, it probably wouldn't be in my top ten, either... but if we're talking top eleven...)

[bloop]

I don't much like your list, Josh.  It's just not very diverse, with 3 from one band and 3 others from another.  It is your favorites, though, so that's pretty unarguable, and you did choose albums that are anywhere from excellent to classic.  My list might go something like:

1.  OK Computer
2.  Achtung Baby!
3.  The Soft Bulletin
4.  Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness
5.  Automatic for the People
6.  Pinkerton
7.  Deserters' Songs
8.  Grace
9.  In Utero
10. Ritual de lo Habitual

...something like this, anyway, maybe not in this order.

[Josh]

Well, my list was simply based on which ones I listen to the most, but yeah, there is a lot of repetition in it. Of course, no two REM or U2 records sound alike, so...

Grace would be an honorable mention for me.

[bloop]

no two REM or U2 records sound alike, so...

I don't know about that.  Both have pretty clearly defined periods that you can tell just by listening from which period an album game from.  The U2 periods so far:

early, punk-arena U2 (that's the best I can do to classify it and it falls short...oh well) i.e. "Boy", "October", "War"

Super-U2 "The Unforgettable Fire" is the bridge leading to "The Joshua Tree" and "Rattle and Hum"

Electronic and Dance-inspired U2 "Achtung Baby!" through "Pop"

Super-U2 renaissance with hints of Electronic and Dance-inspired U2 "All That You Can't Leave Behind"

Argue if you must, but "Achtung" and "Zooropa" seem pretty similar to me, and "Pop" is the logical extension of their ideas (although I confess to liking "Achtung" more than "Pop"...an evolution doesn't mean its always for the better).

A similar, but not identical, trajectory follows for REM.

Finally, I did say the list was something like what mine would look like.  There's albums I thought of right after posting it that I would feel stupid for not including and would probably knock off a few of those if I really sat down to think about it.  "Endtroducing..." by DJ Shadow, Bjork's "Homogenic", "Dummy" by Portishead . . . all possibilities for a final list for me.

[Josh]

Those are very rough classifications. I mean really, does Rattle and Hum really sound that much like The Joshua Tree? It's closer to The Joshua Tree than any other U2 record, perhaps, but it's still not that similar.

I would also question just how much Achtung and Zooropa sound alike. Achtung is much more rock 'n' roll, with influences of industrial and dance music that really aren't present on Zoo, at least not in the form they're in on Achtung ("Mysterious Ways" and "Lemon" could both be labeled dance songs, for instance, but they sound nothing alike to these ears).

Anyway, it's not that important, because, as I said, the list was simply based on which ones I listen to the most. And you may have a point with REM, but more regarding their older stuff; Out of Time, Automatic, and New Adventures all sound completely different to me.

[bloop]

Classifications are always going to be a little rough, and of course you're right that no two are exactly the same.  Otherwise, there'd be no point to get "Pop" when you already have "Zooropa", but I digress.  The records still have similar influences and, therefore, don't sound radically different.  Radical changes don't usually work, but they have remarkably well for U2.  I just picked the moments where U2 redefined what they were drastically, and you'll note that the influences are pretty similar until their next revolution, but NOT identical.

To be clear, I'm not too interested in bands that are just eclectic for eclecticism's sake.  A band's leadership needs to have a pretty good sense of self, and know when it's time to change and find new energies for their records, but not lose sight of where they've been.  That keeps their music truly theirs, and U2's done that and that's why they are among the best bands in the world today.  Little revolutions are cool, but I don't want U2 to come out in halter tops and g-strings, trying to do polka.

[Josh]

I don't want U2 to come out in halter tops and g-strings, trying to do polka.

I don't think you have anything to worry about, but one never knows with U2...

[Nathan]

...Bjork's "Homogenic"...

Yes. This and Vespertine; both are excellent albums.