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Josh
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« on: July 16, 2003, 10:56:14 PM » |
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So... if even a small ammount of faith is powerful, and if faith can move mountains, then why is it that, in the entire history of Christianity, there has probably not been a single example of a mountain literally being moved? Are we all just unfaithful, or is there some kind of a catch?
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rebel546
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« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2003, 11:06:45 PM » |
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yeah I know! And either all the rich Christians I know are burning in Hell right now or there had better be a lot of camels going through some needles pretty darn soon!
Or else we should understand that Jesus liked to use analogies.
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Josh
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« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2003, 11:08:22 PM » |
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Or else we should understand that Jesus liked to use analogies. One could even say that He was an artist, perhaps. I still wonder about the mountains, though. |
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Vlad!
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« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2003, 09:55:23 AM » |
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That is a question that I have wondered about: if faith as small as a mustard seed can perform great works, why aren't more great works performed? One could argue that the great works should be performed in direct service of Christ (and indeed that is where we hear the mot accounts of miracles), but the example Jesus gives doesn't specify that. Others say that it simply wasn't God's will, which makes more sense but that wasn't specified either, and it's always smacked of a cop-out to me anyway. Anyway, I'll try to formulate my thoughts a little better once I get home. Posting while at work isn't really conducive to deep thought  |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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frommetoyou
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« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2003, 09:06:40 PM » |
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About the rich people thing, I actually read Jesus was referring to a gate called the Needle's Eye that you had to stoop to get through.
But maybe everyone knew that but me until a few weeks ago and I'm a loser.
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rebel546
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« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2003, 09:51:17 PM » |
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to put it bluntly, I think the Needle's Eye thing is bull. Jesus isn't like that. He wouldn't say "a rich man must be inconvienced and be forced to stoop just a tad to get to heaven..." no, he was saying that the impossible must happen for a rich man to get to heaven... and the impossible he did!
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frommetoyou
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« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2003, 05:00:07 PM » |
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I don't know if I completely dismiss the theory, because Jesus was fairly artsy with a lot of His teachings, and if that is what He meant I was thinking He was aluding to humility rather than it not being a big deal. But I don't suppose it matters or could be proven either way.
But then again, I'm not rich.
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Vlad!
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« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2003, 05:50:09 PM » |
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I have to go with Mark on this one. Jesus pulled no punches, and those who cared more about their own pocketbook than their fellow man were not high on His list of people to please.
Back to the topic at hand, it DOES seem like faith doesn't move many mountains today. I have heard accounts of miracles from people I trust completely, so I don't doubt that God still has power, but look at it from a rational perspective: we're often no better than mystics and superstitious barbarians. We claim to be in touch with a great power, but we can't really prove it. All accounts of supernatural manifestations of this power are hearsay, usually a friend of a relative read a book that mentioned a possible miracle. We claim we can do anything through this power, and that faith is all that is necessary. Though we often say that only little faith is required to do great works, none of us have moved any mountains. Whenever someone tries and fails, we say "oh, well, you didn't have faith" or "it wasn't God's will." So I have to admit a slight amount of skepticism.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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rebel546
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« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2003, 09:41:50 PM » |
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Here's a list of people I know personally who have experienced/done miracles... (aka I'm more holy than you are because I know of more miracles done!!)
My old small group leader's arm was broken in High School. He prayed God would heal it, and a week after he got the cast on he got it X-Rayed and it was completely healed and got the cast off.
One of my friend's family and another family were going back from Key West... and the poor troubled souls... their TV was broken. But the mom laid hands on the TV, and immediately after she prayed, it worked (God gets HBO)
A freshman at my school used to not be able to ever have sugar (don't know exactly what was wrong with him) but when he found out God could heal people he asked his mom to pray over him, and he was healed, and now can have sugar just like anyone else.
Oh, and my mom's brother's uncle's dog's first cousin's owner's former roommate was raised from the dead, but I don't think that counts.
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Vlad!
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« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2003, 02:15:49 PM » |
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Interestingly, this topic is touched on in Frank Peretti's excellent book The Visitation, though Peretti never really comes up with an answer that addresses all my questions.
I feel the need to clarify something from my previous post: I don't doubt God or His power in an absolute sense. What I doubt is God's promise (or our interpretation of His promise) that anything we ask in the name of Christ, He will do it.
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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Josh
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« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2003, 02:43:05 PM » |
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We've gotten into some good stuff in this thread, but I feel it worth mentioning that my original post was actually quite literal. I just think it interesting that no actual mountains have been moved by faith (to my knowledge), since Christ specifically mentioned them as an example.
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Vlad!
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« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2003, 07:57:28 AM » |
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We've gotten into some good stuff in this thread, but I feel it worth mentioning that my original post was actually quite literal. I just think it interesting that no actual mountains have been moved by faith (to my knowledge), since Christ specifically mentioned them as an example. True, though I can't say I see that as a point "against" the Bible in any way...Christ often spoke in metaphors and analogies, and I think this time was one of them: He was saying that 'small' faith (mustard seed) can do big things (move mountain). Since the mountains were the largest and most prominent geographic features his listeners were probably familiar with, I'm sure it hit home. If, as we've discussed in this thread so far, God uses some additional criteria for determining what He will do for us, such as accordance with His will, redecorating the earth probably doesn't fall very high on the list. And has any Christian even prayed for mountains to be moved? |
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If you don’t have freedom as a principle, you can never see a reason not to make an exception. There are constantly going to be times when for one reason or another there’s some practical convenience in making an exception.
rms
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standman87
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« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2003, 09:49:29 PM » |
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We've gotten into some good stuff in this thread, but I feel it worth mentioning that my original post was actually quite literal. I just think it interesting that no actual mountains have been moved by faith (to my knowledge), since Christ specifically mentioned them as an example. I remember a missionary telling a story of prayer and having an actual mountain moved. But it was a long time ago - i dont remember the name so it is unverifiable. And to my recollection many mountains have moved in the earth's history - who is to say that no one prayed for them to be moved and it fit God's will? |
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I tried to say the right things in the right way, but simple silence is the only way to conclude my attempt.
Ponderings and then restatements from both sides will cause more of the same.
So remember: Stan, yes, this man, gave his best and is leaving it up to you and Him to do the rest.
Farewell
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standman87
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« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2003, 09:56:44 PM » |
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a post after a post hmmm...
About the mustard seed of faith - how large is that? Wouldn't you say that faith is unmeasurable? Wouldn't it be better measured in time? I think maybe Jesus is saying that to have a little trust in God, even if it is surrounded by doubts trying to crush it, God will use his unmeasurable power through you.
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Logged
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I tried to say the right things in the right way, but simple silence is the only way to conclude my attempt.
Ponderings and then restatements from both sides will cause more of the same.
So remember: Stan, yes, this man, gave his best and is leaving it up to you and Him to do the rest.
Farewell
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